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 Post subject: Re: DSNGRR buying diesel locomotives
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:24 am 

Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:16 pm
Posts: 61
I have yet to visit the steam railroads of Colorado and pray that when I am able steam will still be powering the trains I’ll ride. However there are three very dood reasons for MODERN diesel electric locomotives on the DS.
1. The diesels will be very unlikely to emit any kind of burning embers due to the required exhaust after treatment including particulate filters. All oil fired, fire tube boilered steam locomotives are just one violent wheel slip away from sending some flaming soot balls out the stack.
2. Many modern tourists are very environmentally conscious and view any locomotive belching clouds of smoke, whether it be from coal oil fuel oil as nasty, disgusting, terrible, should be illegal etc. ( All comments I’ve heard first hand a Cass Scenic RR and also at Strasburg).
3. The new diesels will allow instant motive power protection should one of the steamers fail or become sidelined. Keeping extra motive power under steam all the time, especially when you have to fire it on wood pellets to keep emissions low, is expensive. Strasburg no longer keeps a proctection engine under steam . The NW-2 diesel is their protection power.


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 Post subject: Re: DSNGRR buying diesel locomotives
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:30 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 2561
Location: Strasburg, PA
484Mike wrote:
Now they spend over 3 millions for the ability to go 100 percent diesel,

Not even close. The two diesels combined are rated to pull sixteen cars. Since restarting after the fire they have been running twenty two cars per day, and that is a reduction from normal that reduces the number of hot cinders being ejected.

The diesels on hand and on order have nowhere near the capacity needed to replace steam.

The sky is not falling.


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 Post subject: Re: DSNGRR buying diesel locomotives
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:09 am 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
Posts: 1543
steamloco76 wrote:

2. Many modern tourists are very environmentally conscious and view any locomotive belching clouds of smoke, whether it be from coal oil fuel oil as nasty, disgusting, terrible, should be illegal etc. ( All comments I’ve heard first hand a Cass Scenic RR and also at Strasburg).


And this has been the growing problem. Steam is not mainstream anymore, so any downside in its cleanliness has been deemed acceptable in the exceptional cases of being an historical, recreational, educational operation. Because it is thus limited in scope, the harmful effects are not considered to be a practical problem.

But the anti-fossil fuel movement has grown so strong that even the symbolism of coal burning has become offensive to some. Under this new paradigm, coal-fired locomotives do not just start fires from embers, but they also cause the hot dry weather that makes the ideal conditions for the fires to start.

This is a slippery slope that is likely to criticize the diesels as well as the coal burners or oil-fired steam. Under these new terms, D&S must become a modern scenic railway where the historical motive power is no longer the attraction. The objective of the railroad will be to provide, modern, efficient, electric trains to carry nature lovers into the scenic wilderness without the use of automobiles.


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 Post subject: Re: DSNGRR buying diesel locomotives
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:11 am 

Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:55 am
Posts: 164
Well, the "fallen sky" depends on the sort of customer who has travelled a long way, expecting what he saw on the website and getting diesel instead... Of course, non-railfans might probably not care at all and be fine. As the DSNGRR is a business, they will soon find out.


BTW I have seen lots of oil-fired steam locomotives in regular service, but I can confirm no situation in which a slipping locomotive caused "flaming soot balls falling from the sky". May be you show us?

Mike


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 Post subject: Re: DSNGRR buying diesel locomotives
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:12 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:10 am
Posts: 2499
softwerkslex wrote:
The main reason there are no mid day steam runs on the Mt. Washington Cog is that the diesels are much faster than the steam they replaced, and it is not possible to mix steam and diesel on the same schedule. That is why steam is limited to the first and last trips of the day.


Steam now runs mid-day, too. New sidings at the summit allow trains to lay over in a fashion to lets the bio-diesel trains get in and out "out of order of ascent." From what I learned last August riding the morning steam trip, expanded steam ops was something they thought to be a very good business decision. Good news!

Rob

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 Post subject: Re: DSNGRR buying diesel locomotives
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:23 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 2561
Location: Strasburg, PA
484Mike wrote:
BTW I have seen lots of oil-fired steam locomotives in regular service, but I can confirm no situation in which a slipping locomotive caused "flaming soot balls falling from the sky". May be you show us?

Oil burners and diesels can build up red hot chunks of carbon that can be blown out under heavy throttle and start fires. Virtually all of the northwest steam loggers used oil burners (in a very wet climate), yet they very commonly had spark arrestors (in some cases very elaborate (i.e. ugly) ones). They weren't there just for decoration.


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 Post subject: Re: DSNGRR buying diesel locomotives
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:22 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:14 pm
Posts: 135
484Mike wrote:
About 12 hours ago, DSNGRR posted on facebook:

"Durango & Silverton Narrow Gauge Railroad Jason, just to clarify, some of the details regarding No. 493 are already in the public domain, but we DO plan on issuing a formal announcement regarding its restoration and conversion very soon. That announcement will include a definitive date for its return to service. It goes without saying (but I'll mention it here anyway for others) that this conversion is a very time-consuming and expensive endeavor: ~$4 million. Stay tuned for further details. Sound good? ^krp"


Four million dollars for an oil conversion of a narrow-gauge engine? You can buy a new steamer for that!


Mike


While it sounds a little high to me.....a lot of work is going into 493. They are converting to oil, converting from a mostly rigid staybolt pattern to a mostly flexible pattern. They are doing a complete running gear rebuild (493 has been out of service since 1968). Building a new tender cistern. And who knows if it needs any additional boiler work. Also.....remember they have an all paid staff. No volunteers to cut costs down


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 Post subject: Re: DSNGRR buying diesel locomotives
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:30 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:28 pm
Posts: 545
Location: Northern WV
Perhaps they are thinking that the two diesels plus an oil-burning steamer could carry the typical summer load during a high-fire risk period.

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 Post subject: Re: DSNGRR buying diesel locomotives
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:33 pm 

Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:17 pm
Posts: 246
Hasn't it been sometime since a k37 has operated on the line?

Wonder if it will be a "standard oil" setup or if they will go for something more advanced.

Highly doubt we'll see mods akin to the 4960 on it.


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 Post subject: Re: DSNGRR buying diesel locomotives
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:55 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm
Posts: 1477
2 diesels that can pull an 8 car train each, Plus one oil burning steam engine is enough to get them through a summer season with extreme fire conditions... It is not enough for them to retire the other engines. Last summer they were running 4 trains a day! Not sure, but I think they were all longer than 8 cars as well.

Durango's branding has always been both scenery and steam, I don't think they want to change that (especially with Cumbres & Toltec so close, Cumbres saw major attendance spikes when Durango was shut down.. Source... The C&TS commission report).

I think they are doing what they need to do to continue to operate in future dry weather situations. Makes sense to me.


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 Post subject: Re: DSNGRR buying diesel locomotives
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:29 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:29 pm
Posts: 397
As an aside...I live very close to Dollywood (in Tennessee) and have come to learn that the steam engines are not well liked there anymore (by visitors). They are very loud (which I love) and they cover riders with tiny peppery cinders (which are delicious). There was a time when they were a draw but what if the steamers actually started driving people away? We all know that the millinials are ruining everything else...maybe Klondike Katie is next? Would a whisper quiet diesel make a suitable replacement?
I hate to think about such things...but we could have a long conversation about the very subject. We may come to a point where tourists prefer to look at photos of steamers and ride by something powered by...say...butterfly wings or pure thoughts. Scary???
T7


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 Post subject: Re: DSNGRR buying diesel locomotives
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:57 am 

Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:53 am
Posts: 79
Quote:
We all know that the millinials are ruining everything else...maybe Klondike Katie is next?


Yes, Yes we are. It's right in the cross hairs of our next evil plan! (twists handle bar mustache)



Frankly, While diesels in all steam territory seems like a scary proposition, I think the over all signs are good. If they are will to invest $3 million in two diesels, and $4 million in bringing a steam locomotive back from the dead they are thinking steam. They could have very easily spent $4.5 million on diesel and shelved steam entirely during the droughts.

I could be wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: DSNGRR buying diesel locomotives
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:01 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:54 am
Posts: 1016
Location: NJ
I have to disagree with Steamloco76's characterization of an oil burner having a wheelslip and ''sending flaming soot balls out of the stack''. With a properly maintained and fired oil burner that should not be an issue. I have fired both coal and oil, and one of the keys to keeping an oil burner 'clean' is the sanding of the flues on a regular basis. Cinders take care of that chore on a coal burner.

It has been some years, but at Black River, with the 148, we would put a scoop or two of sand through the firedoor peephole while working the engine hard up the grade between Everett's Road and Toad Lane. Yes, it would make some black smoke, but even with the occasional wheelslip, usually on a rainy day, I never saw flame from that engine's stack. Of course, as had been mentioned on this forum before, the goal with firing oil is to see a light gray haze at the stack.

Now, some of those newer GE diesel-electric upstarts, well, they can and often do often become flamers...

EDM
Old Fart, NJ


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 Post subject: Re: DSNGRR buying diesel locomotives
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:09 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 2561
Location: Strasburg, PA
One argument that tends to bring environmentalists up short is to point out that there are only about 150 steam locomotives that operate in the entire country. If they they were alive, they would be an endangered species.

Also one that doesn't work so well any more since I have heard that it has been converted to natural gas, but a power plant up the Susquehanna used to at least burn more coal every four hours, than we do every year.


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 Post subject: Re: DSNGRR buying diesel locomotives
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:30 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:14 am
Posts: 352
I know first hand that all is not safe with diesels. I was pulling the throttle on an SW9 when we started a few miles of large spot fires along our row. Our engine hardly gets any load (unless I get my hands on it) so it had built up carbon.

If these new engines for the D&S have the DPF & SCR systems on them, they should have no problems as they will be pulling their guts out on northbound trains. Hot, clean exhaust systems keep everything good.


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