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 Post subject: Re: Residents Sue D&S Over Fire
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:58 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:15 am
Posts: 497
softwerkslex wrote:
Quote:
Add to that all the active locomotives have spark arrester systems installed on the stack that dampen the exhaust by spraying water into the stack (that is why the top of the stack has that ring of pipe) in addition to screens inside the stack.


That is interesting and if anyone has more information to post I would enjoy reading it.


You can see the assembly at the top of the stack, from my understanding the top rig has the spray nozzles. IIRC a few months back someone was talking about them with a closeup (may have been on one of steam facebook groups)

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 Post subject: Re: Residents Sue D&S Over Fire
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:27 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:54 am
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Location: Tucson, Arizona
Interesting, but stack arrestors only solve part of the problem. Sparks or burning embers also come out through the grates, Most go into the ash pan, but all it takes is one to start an inferno. Oil is the better choice. Depending on how much oil it takes to make a round trip, it might also save money. Waste oil is plentiful, relatively inexpensive, produces no ash and burns cleaner than coal.

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 Post subject: Re: Residents Sue D&S Over Fire
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:34 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:41 pm
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Alan Walker wrote:
Interesting, but stack arrestors only solve part of the problem. Sparks or burning embers also come out through the grates, Most go into the ash pan, but all it takes is one to start an inferno. Oil is the better choice. Depending on how much oil it takes to make a round trip, it might also save money. Waste oil is plentiful, relatively inexpensive, produces no ash and burns cleaner than coal.


Are you familiar with the term "drooling"? It's what happens when there is an abundance of oil flow and insufficient atomizer in an oil burning locomotive (oil guys, correct me if I'm way off base). Regardless, this situation produces globs of fire dripping below the firepan, spilling out onto the ROW, and just as great of a line side fire hazard. Good firing habits prevent this just as they do with coal burners, but it still happens.

Secondly, waste oil if not properly filtered for the heavy impurities will produce ash and cinders. Granted, it is not to the same degree as a coal burning locomotive, however, oil burners are not immune from starting fires along the ROW. They just lessen the potential.

Best,
DC


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 Post subject: Re: Residents Sue D&S Over Fire
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:18 pm 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
Posts: 1354
I have understood that D&S routinely followed all steam trains with a motorized section car equipped with a water tank and spray pump, with the intent of spotting and extinguishing any fire that was started by the locomotive. I also understand that they use a helicopter to patrol the route and search for fires that might be started by the trains. I also assume there must be a method or arrangement for the railroad to contact the Forest Service for a quick response from the Forest Service fire fighters.

Also, apparently, the D&S and the Forest Service agreed that running the D&S steam locomotives during the drought conditions existing at the time of the fire starting was in compliance with the Forest Service fire danger rating.

So, given all of these precautions, how could this fire have been started by a D&S train?

If the train did start the fire, considering the last point about the Forest Service fire danger rating in particular; it would seem that the Forest Service did not impose enough of a restriction on the D&S steam train operations. So wouldn’t the fire be the fault of the Forest Service? Certainly, they had the power to prevent it.


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 Post subject: Re: Residents Sue D&S Over Fire
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:37 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:54 am
Posts: 830
Location: NJ
"Waste oil", if from gas stations or garages, often has ATF, power steering fluid, anti-freeze, and maybe some other impurities that just won't burn. It is also considered as a hazmat in many cases. Been there, done that-

EDM
Superfund, NJ


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 Post subject: Re: Residents Sue D&S Over Fire
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:25 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 1057
Quote:
" ... waste oil if not properly filtered for the heavy impurities will produce ash and cinders. Granted, it is not to the same degree as a coal burning locomotive, however, oil burners are not immune from starting fires along the ROW. They just lessen the potential.


Note that initial treatment for any waste oil ought to involve centrifugal separation of the 'aqueous materials' (including the fluids EDM just mentioned) and removing most of the particulates as an additional step, for example by passing them through filter media on the way to the centrifuge, is sensible. You'd run the plant as continuously as you had 'feedstock' and volunteers, so even a comparatively small and inexpensive treatment setup would likely work for an operation the size of the D&S, especially if waste oil were used mostly at peak fire time and not as a permanent conversion.

I believe there are also some suspended polllutants in the waste oil, such as ZDDP, that might come to be restricted in material to be burned in the open. What additional treatment steps might then be required is up to people more expert than I am.

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 Post subject: Re: Residents Sue D&S Over Fire
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:02 pm 

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Location: southeastern USA
Or, you burn refined clean oil - using an efficient combustion system like that devised at SLM / Sulzer.

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 Post subject: Re: Residents Sue D&S Over Fire
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:52 pm 
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Location: Orrville, OH
Drifting further off topic but I wonder if you can use WVO (clean, dewatered waste vegetable oil) as fuel. IIRC, it has about the same BTU as #2 fuel oil. Unless I calculate incorrectly, it's currently about $1.70/gal retail plus delivered if it's available locally. I've been around biodiesel buses that kind of smell like french fries which might help local restaurant sales after a trip. Just wonderin'.....

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 Post subject: Re: Residents Sue D&S Over Fire
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:08 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm
Posts: 167
I think that's what Grand Canyon and the Disneyland Railroad burn... I know they smell a bit like cooking oil. ha.


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 Post subject: Re: Residents Sue D&S Over Fire
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:24 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:26 pm
Posts: 79
I wonder why the D&S doesn't install netting around the top of the ash pan or fabricate something similar to an Anderson or Cyclone spark arrestor front end. After all they're considering burning oil, and these improvements wouldn't cost a lot. I know there aren't any guaranties, but it would be a preventative along with a following vehicle or train. Might be worth it for the PR value of showing more actions done to prevent fires.
Tom Hamilton


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 Post subject: Re: Residents Sue D&S Over Fire
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:30 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
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Location: Strasburg, PA
Stationary Engineer wrote:
I wonder why the D&S doesn't ... fabricate something similar to an Anderson or Cyclone spark arrestor front end.


I believe that the #480's have Anderson front ends. The #470's have Master Mechanic's front ends.

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 Post subject: Re: Residents Sue D&S Over Fire
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:50 pm 

Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 5:47 pm
Posts: 6
crij wrote:
softwerkslex wrote:
Quote:
Add to that all the active locomotives have spark arrester systems installed on the stack that dampen the exhaust by spraying water into the stack (that is why the top of the stack has that ring of pipe) in addition to screens inside the stack.


That is interesting and if anyone has more information to post I would enjoy reading it.


You can see the assembly at the top of the stack, from my understanding the top rig has the spray nozzles. IIRC a few months back someone was talking about them with a closeup (may have been on one of steam facebook groups)



Yes, the circle of pipe has nozzles which shoot across the top of the stack. They're piped off the fireman's injector with an on/off valve in the cab. When I fired there in 2016 we ran them from Hermosa to Rockwood, then from High Bridge/Tacoma to just north of Snowshed Slide.

TT


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 Post subject: Re: Residents Sue D&S Over Fire
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:31 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3375
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Keeping both threads up to date, story from Durango on the return of service.

https://durangoherald.com/articles/2424 ... olls-again


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 Post subject: Re: Residents Sue D&S Over Fire
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:19 pm 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
Posts: 1354
How reliable are the water spray stack nozzles in preventing the emissions hot enough to start fires along the track? Were they in operation on the train that is suspected of starting the 416 fire?

If the present water spray system is not nominally 100% reliable in preventing fires due to stack emissions, is it possible to design and build a system that is nominally 100% reliable?

Regarding the D&S conversion of coal fired locomotives to oil firing, is this work based on existing development, so it is just a matter of mechanically executing an oil firing system that has already been successfully proven? Or will the conversion require new research and development to perfect a workable system for converting D&S locomotives?


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 Post subject: Re: Residents Sue D&S Over Fire
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:46 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:40 am
Posts: 84
Location: Chama, NM
Ron Travis wrote:
How reliable are the water spray stack nozzles in preventing the emissions hot enough to start fires along the track? Were they in operation on the train that is suspected of starting the 416 fire?

If the present water spray system is not nominally 100% reliable in preventing fires due to stack emissions, is it possible to design and build a system that is nominally 100% reliable?


The nozzles are arrayed around the outside of the stack spraying water into the stream of gasses and cinders exiting the stack at a high velocity when the engine is working hard. I don't know how far into the gas stream it penetrates before it is evaporated into steam and carried up with the rest of the exhaust gasses but probably not very far. It almost certainly douses some of the cinders around the periphery and helps, but nowhere near approaches 100% effectiveness.

Ron Travis wrote:
Regarding the D&S conversion of coal fired locomotives to oil firing, is this work based on existing development, so it is just a matter of mechanically executing an oil firing system that has already been successfully proven? Or will the conversion require new research and development to perfect a workable system for converting D&S locomotives?


Firing a steam locomotive boiler with oil is a straightforward conversion using thoroughly proven technology. Calculations are required to size the burner, fire pan, combustion air openings, and exhaust nozzle. Some fine tuning may be require to get everything right but it is by no means an exotic new technology.


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