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 Post subject: Re: DL&W mu cars?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:14 am 

Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:31 am
Posts: 516
I want to say there was a discussion about this in the past if someone wants to dig around rypn. It may have been under Erie and not DLW.


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 Post subject: Re: DL&W mu cars?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:18 am 

Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:31 am
Posts: 516
Here it is:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=34747&hilit=erie+mu


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 Post subject: Re: DL&W mu cars?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:46 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:08 am
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6-18003 wrote:
Steamtown has a number of them, non-operable, some still with pantographs.

[EDIT] Let me correct that, they have one powered car and three trailers on the roster.


The thread has included some interesting discussion of MU operation. For the aforementioned MUs in Scranton, operation is not necessary in order to create a display having interpretive value.

One of the approaches that has not worked well for the Park Service is in how they have approached utilizing the collection to tell the story of the site. Gordon Chappell was the NPS Western Region Regional Historian back in 1987 when he began the work of assessing the historical significance of the collection that the Park Service was to take responsibility for in 1988. The outcome of his work, The Steamtown Special History Study- The Locomotives of Steamtown, can be found at this link.

https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_ ... n/shst.htm

Chappell analyzed each artifact with a careful eye to how each piece, regardless of origin, could be best used to tell the interpretive story of the site. The important skilled distinction he made was to view the site not through the narrow lens of Delaware, Lackawanna and Western Railroad history or City of Scranton history, but rather as an important remnant of early 20th century industrialism. The most important story is not the growth of the DL&W or the growth of Scranton. The most important story to be told by the yards in Scranton, and the one that the collection was best suited to tell, is the story of the thousands of early 20th century railroad yards, roundhouses, and shop complexes throughout the country that were the backbone of the tremendous industrial growth of that time period.

The MUs and Canadian National 47, a 4-6-4T, epitomize the disconnect in how Park Service management view the non-DL&W/NEPA/US artifacts relative to Chappell's holistic approach of using each piece to tell part of the site's story. Chappell emphasizes the similarity of 47 to locomotives ordered by the Central Railroad of NJ and how this type was used to solve the challenges of the growing need for commuter service as people migrated to the suburbs - the need for relatively rapid acceleration/deceleration, ability to navigate tight curves, and ease of changing direction. Andre' Chapelon's book, “La Locomotive a Vapeur”, notes that the Boston and Albany used a similar 4-6-6T configuration for the same purpose. The Scranton site's original owner, the DL&W, turned to electrification and the MU during the same period to meet the identical needs of commuter service. The Park Service has in its collection a rare example of a steam locomotive type and a small MU trainset that, together, afford an interesting opportunity to compare and contrast how local, US, and European railroads (4-6-4Ts were also used for this purpose by the Reichsbahn) met the growing commuter demand as the suburbs expanded in the second decade of the twentieth century.

Yet 47 and the MUs have sat outside in the Scranton elements for 30 years under Park Service stewardship and are currently located at opposite ends of the yard. 47 was not included in the last round of asbestos abatement even though it has very little run time since its last overhaul. To best utilize the collection to tell the story of the site, Steamtown management has to evolve from operating the site like a local DL&W or PA railroad museum to looking at the collection and site physical plant in the context of national steam-era rail transport and early twentieth century industrialism. Locating these artifacts on adjacent tracks and putting up a sign to create a display that includes 47 and the MUs to tell the story of the expansion to the suburbs and how the railroads adapted would be a great start.


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 Post subject: Re: DL&W mu cars?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:31 am 

Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:40 pm
Posts: 179
Location: San Francisco, CA
The Western Railway Museum is one of the organizations that got parts from a Lackawanna car that wound up on the Skunk trains. We do not have a complete car.

Further, I believe that a couple of the groups like IRM that have 1500 volt cars have had to change out the compressors to 600 volt types in order to run the cars.

Here is a thought: if one had a restored example of a Lackawanna, Erie or Pennsylvania commuter railroad car; where would you run it? I have not heard of any museum that has a 1500 volt system.

Ted Miles, WRM Member and Volunteer


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 Post subject: Re: DL&W mu cars?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:16 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:46 am
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Location: S.F. Bay Area
Typical 600V cars with four motors alternate between series-parallel and full parallel.

As railroads bumped voltage to reduce transmission losses, 750V was an easy stop because 600V motors will happily run 750V with little modification. Doubling that to 1500V, as for instance the South Shore and Sacramento Northern did, was as easy as wiring two 750V motors in series, and doing transition between full series and series-parallel, i.e. *pairs* of motors "permanently" in series, instead of singles. This simplified the series/parallel transitions and reversers to that of a 2-motor car. The motors had to be insulated for 1500V since the high motor would see 1500V between armature and chassis, but insulation is cheap.

Native 1500V motors could be had, but had significant engineering changes to accommodate the higher voltage, particularly to prevent commutator flash-over.

The Lackawanna electrification was run at an ambitious 3000V. This required both 1500V motors and ”two motors in series" wiring like the South Shore, with the motors insulated for 3000V.

Will a Lackawanna run on 600V? It will walk. I'll explain.

Sacramento Northern had both 600V and 1500V divisions, and most of their equipment had special gear to accommodate for that. Again it was 750V motors insulated for 1500V, like the South Shore, except with an additional reverser-like changeover switch that would switch from motor pairs in series to pairs in parallel. The Western Railway Museum went to pains to preserve all that apparatus on SN 1005.

It was the tradition at Rio Vista Jct. for shop personnel to go out for dinner after work sessions. These ended up being technical bull sessions, and a key criterion for restaurants was that the backsides of their placemats had to be blank.

One bull-session subject was the South Shore cars at the Southern Michigan Railroad, whose electrical apparatus was wisely kept intact. One question which I mused was, could the car motor (essentially unmodified) on 300V, easily gotten by rectifying a generator's output? We concluded on paper that it probably could. However, we had just completed the restoration of 1005, including its 1500V mode. The cars are roughly comparable; the South Shore at 840 hp and the 1005 at, I don't recall, around 700 hp for a lighter car. So at one point we had the car out for other testing, and we put this to the test.

--------------

The car was placed in 1500V mode so its moters would connect either full-series or series-parallel, just like a South Shore. It has manual "HL" (Hand, Line) controls similar to the South Shore's HB (Hand, Battery) controls -- so we could manually keep the car in series. That's what we did. We advanced through the series points to running series (resistors out), which means each motor was seeing 150V. The car sauntered along, balancing out at about 15 mph, as we expected on paper, and able to climb the hill toward RVJ.

This was a simulation of what a South Shore would do in series on a 600V supply, and in parallel on a 300V supply: it would saunter along at about 15 mph.

As for a Lackawanna, double everything: 600V supply in full series, so 1500V motors are seeing 1/10 the voltage they are designed for; then in full parallel they see 1/5 design voltage. Again comes back to ~15 mph, just right for most heritage railways.

It impressed me how many Lackawannas, South Shores and other abundant interurban stocks could be operated in just such a way. Businesswise, where does that fit? A Lackawanna or South Shore is a beast, with easily 75 seats: either one becomes a "Doodlebug" you can roll out at very little expense and run with a 2-man crew. That makes it easier to go after weekday tour buses. Also, if the generator is water cooled, its exhaust can be circulated through the South Shore's hot water heat system (look, it's there) to heat the car. Lackawannas don't have that, but it wouldn't be hard to add.

------------

As for the compressor and other apparatus, at WRM the car is usually set in 1500V mode to allow operators to use the full range of points. (If set in 600V mode, the car is a rocket, and would be difficult to keep at speeds appropriate for the FRA exemptions that off-general-system railroads enjoy). The dynamotor, which spins the compressor, is jumpered to ignore the 600/1500 setting and always operate in 600V mode.

On a South Shore adaptation, I expect to use a generator as power source, and have it power two small commodity off the shelf electric compressors, to provide redundancy (as opposed to a step-up device and the lone ancient 1500V compressor made of unobtanium). The generator could also power a COTS battery charger, to keep up the 32V battery for controls. The very same thing could be done with Lackawanna motors.

If you were powering a Lackawanna motor off 600VDC, then you'd get COTS 600DC-480AC inverters, and have them power COTS compressors and battery charger in the same fashion.

Note that the adaptation modifies almost none of the historic fabric of the car and does nothing to alter its operation. That's how I roll.


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 Post subject: Re: DL&W mu cars?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:00 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2337
Location: Northern Illinois
Robert,

Nice proof of concept experiment, but any group that has a trolley locomotive has likely seen this, as it was not uncommon to wire locomotives to start with all motors in series. IRM's Illinois Terminal Class B is like this; it has a monster controller with three running points; series-series, series-parallel, and full parallel. Due to the lower speed gearing, balancing speed in series-series is more like 10 MPH. The B-W locomotives the CTA had for the coal train service accomplished the same thing with a change-over switch mounted above the windshield. I've been told the SOP was to slowly back the train across Montrose Ave. at the bottom of the Beuena Park incline, then start the run for the hill in series-series. As soon as the motorman was in the running point, he'd shut off, jump up and throw the change-over, and when he pulled the controller open again he'd be in the first point of series-parallel and would accelerate from there.

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 Post subject: Re: DL&W mu cars?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:09 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:48 pm
Posts: 33
Location: Watchung, NJ
robertmacdowell wrote:

Will a Lackawanna run on 600V? It will walk. I'll explain.

--------------

The car was placed in 1500V mode so its moters would connect either full-series or series-parallel, just like a South Shore. It has manual "HL" (Hand, Line) controls similar to the South Shore's HB (Hand, Battery) controls -- so we could manually keep the car in series. That's what we did. We advanced through the series points to running series (resistors out), which means each motor was seeing 150V. The car sauntered along, balancing out at about 15 mph, as we expected on paper, and able to climb the hill toward RVJ.

This was a simulation of what a South Shore would do in series on a 600V supply, and in parallel on a 300V supply: it would saunter along at about 15 mph.

As for a Lackawanna, double everything: 600V supply in full series, so 1500V motors are seeing 1/10 the voltage they are designed for; then in full parallel they see 1/5 design voltage. Again comes back to ~15 mph, just right for most heritage railways.

It impressed me how many Lackawannas, South Shores and other abundant interurban stocks could be operated in just such a way. Businesswise, where does that fit? A Lackawanna or South Shore is a beast, with easily 75 seats: either one becomes a "Doodlebug" you can roll out at very little expense and run with a 2-man crew. That makes it easier to go after weekday tour buses. Also, if the generator is water cooled, its exhaust can be circulated through the South Shore's hot water heat system (look, it's there) to heat the car. Lackawannas don't have that, but it wouldn't be hard to add.

------------

As for the compressor and other apparatus, at WRM the car is usually set in 1500V mode to allow operators to use the full range of points. (If set in 600V mode, the car is a rocket, and would be difficult to keep at speeds appropriate for the FRA exemptions that off-general-system railroads enjoy). The dynamotor, which spins the compressor, is jumpered to ignore the 600/1500 setting and always operate in 600V mode.

On a South Shore adaptation, I expect to use a generator as power source, and have it power two small commodity off the shelf electric compressors, to provide redundancy (as opposed to a step-up device and the lone ancient 1500V compressor made of unobtanium). The generator could also power a COTS battery charger, to keep up the 32V battery for controls. The very same thing could be done with Lackawanna motors.

If you were powering a Lackawanna motor off 600VDC, then you'd get COTS 600DC-480AC inverters, and have them power COTS compressors and battery charger in the same fashion.

Note that the adaptation modifies almost none of the historic fabric of the car and does nothing to alter its operation.


Robert,

Thank you so much for your information. That was precisely what I was hoping to see in this thread. I always believed that a Lackawanna MU could be set up to run on a lower voltage system, but I had no clue as to how it ought to have been accomplished.

I do have a few follow up questions.

You spoke about keeping much of the "historic fabric" in the control systems. Since many of the Lackawanna MU's have had their control systems removed, or have otherwise lost many of their significant pieces, might it be easier to replace many of the missing pieces with control system components that are designed for 600v systems, as opposed to restoring the control components back to their original configurations?

My second question deals with the top speed that you suggested might "possible". Would the control stand function like it would at a higher voltage?

My very limited understanding of your explanation makes me think that in order to obtain a top "walking" speed of 15 mph (which would be perfect for the very short demonstrator service I was contemplating) the throttle need to be fully "open" in order to draw enough power to reach that limited speed. Am I misunderstanding the principle you were explaining?

This is a fascinating discussion, and one I would love to see discussed further.

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Eric S. Strohmeyer
CNJ Rail Corporation


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 Post subject: Re: DL&W mu cars?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:42 am 

Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:31 am
Posts: 516
It's an interesting study but I think the best use for these cars is what they have been historically repurposed as - heavyweight passenger cars.


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 Post subject: Re: DL&W MU Electrification Question
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:44 am 

Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:51 pm
Posts: 102
Eric S Strohmeyer wrote:
Good evening folks,

This is the first thread I have seen that I have a personal interest in "hijacking"... (My apologies to Robert for steering his thread in a different direction).

While Robert seems to be seeking information about cars which remain operable, I would like to alter the conversation into a discussion about whether a Direct Current electric MU could still operate using a transmission system which puts out less voltage than what the MU was designed to operate on in regular service.

I start off with a disclaimer: ... I know enough about electrification to easily get myself electrocuted. I simply don't understand the basics of electricity well enough to get my head around the concept of how it all works. However, I do know that many people on this forum know this subject well, and i'm hoping someone might be able to provide some simple explanations for the electrically impaired (like me).....

Robert seemed to suggest, or asked, whether an EL MU could run on the electrical system, such as the one at IRM. I found the question/suggestion intriguing.

The fine folks at the East Troy Railroad Museum appear to routinely operate traditional streetcars alongside former C.S.S. & S.B. MU's on a regular basis. This appears to demonstrate that cars which routinely operated on 1500v DC system could operate on 600v - 750v DC systems and vice versa.

In researching this topic before writing this post, I seemed to get the impression from what I read that an increase in voltage was needed when DC substations were located further apart. It appears that electrical engineers designing electrification systems would take into consideration such other factors as: top speeds, train lengths, acceleration, and distance between stations.

All this leads me to my question. Is it possible for a DC MU to run on a power system with a lower voltage than what the car was designed to handle?

Thanks in advance for those who might be able to provide some insight on the subject!


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 Post subject: Re: DL&W mu cars?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:02 am 

Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:51 pm
Posts: 102
Our 1500V London & Port Stanley interurban was fairly easy to convert to 600V operation.
It has pairs of 750V motors connected in series and had a dynamotor (MG/blower) supplying 600V for control circuits and most 5 in series interior lighting. We decided not to change motor connections as we estimated the car would be able to attain at least 25 to 30 m.p.h. on reduced voltage which in practice, it has. The 600V output was connected to the line and since the car would not be MU'ed for the foreseeable future, 32V/battery circuits were disconnected but left intact. The battery charging system was through the ground side of the compressor in summer and the heaters in winter. Headlights were changed to 120V, 150W fed from a resistor tube package and 32V electric markers were replaced by kero. The car ran from 1972 to around 1997 with a CP-29 compressor running at less than half speed. We obtained a 600V CP-28 unit from Edmonton and found that the motor portions were interchangeable.


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 Post subject: Re: DL&W mu cars?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:37 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:54 am
Posts: 842
Location: NJ
This discussion is very similar to that which sometimes comes up with respect to the various PRR GG-1s scattered all over the country. Yes, you could run one on 600VDC. After all, the running gear was based on the New Haven EP-3s, sans all the DC switchgear and DC compressor. Perhaps an oversimplification, but by changing the compressor, bypassing the transformer (if it still is in the unit-) and rewiring some of the switchgear, you could get one to move on 600 VDC.

However, I hope I never see a G motor with trolley poles. I'd much rather remember seeing them at speed going through Midway and Nassau.


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 Post subject: Re: DL&W mu cars?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:58 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:46 am
Posts: 2528
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Eric,

If you have a Lackawanna which is gutted of electrical gear, sell it to me as you have a poor candidate for restoration. Acquire one that has not been gutted. Sadly the Toledo car was scrapped a couple of years ago, I know of no other but I haven't exactly hunted them all down, either. Race 'ya.

The first thing that would be stripped is the motors, so you'd either need to find motors that fit, or change trucks. You could retrofit Brand X trolley controls if you like, at which point the performance of the car would be entirely a function of how you built it.

Yes, in the setups I propose, assuming original equipment, you would cycle through the motor point controls in the normal fashion, ultimately "putting it on the brass" just like downtown.

One detail worth noting is the resistor packs would be quite the wrong values for that application, i.e. Too high resistance. As it happens, dividing resistors by 1/3 or 1/5 is a straightforward affair. The divider bars can be fused so if it's ever run on full voltage, the excessive current would blow the fuses, resetting the resistor value back to factory.

EDM,

I wouldn't say a GG1 could be converted as easily as a Lackawanna, certainly not. But still, far easier and with far more respect for historic fabric than any of the naysayers would want you to know. It would be a wizard tier project; definitely do a Lackawanna first ;)

6-18003,

I like making money. Everything we do runs on money so I want butts in those seats any which way we can. But I also like the "everything we do" part.


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 Post subject: Re: DL&W mu cars?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:30 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:31 am
Posts: 516
robertmacdowell wrote:
6-18003,

I like making money. Everything we do runs on money so I want butts in those seats any which way we can. But I also like the "everything we do" part.


I get it, I just think there are easier ways to get where you are going. Reading and Northern has a pair of Budd diesel cars now - I wonder how many of those are still out there? Also have to wonder how many electrified streetcar lines can handle a car like an MU with that big of a truck spread.


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 Post subject: Re: DL&W mu cars?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:56 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:31 am
Posts: 516
A question - an excuse me if I am totally off base here because this is a big "what if." Steamtown has one powered MU car and three trailers. Theoretically, could they convert one of the trailers to accommodate a prime mover and generate enough juice to operate normally? I don't know enough about the Budd cars as I mentioned earlier to determine if this is feasible or not. I am also curious what it would take to beef up a heavyweight enough to carry all that equipment.

Thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: DL&W mu cars?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:37 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:48 pm
Posts: 33
Location: Watchung, NJ
EDM wrote:
This discussion is very similar to that which sometimes comes up with respect to the various PRR GG-1s scattered all over the country. Yes, you could run one on 600VDC. After all, the running gear was based on the New Haven EP-3s, sans all the DC switchgear and DC compressor. Perhaps an oversimplification, but by changing the compressor, bypassing the transformer (if it still is in the unit-) and rewiring some of the switchgear, you could get one to move on 600 VDC.

However, I hope I never see a G motor with trolley poles. I'd much rather remember seeing them at speed going through Midway and Nassau.


I would agree with EDM regarding a GG1. However, those unique branch line services which were handled by either a PRR MP54 (think - Princeton Branch shuttle) or a DL&W MU (think Gladstone or Montclair local) might be easy enough to replicate with a working MU car or two.

The Western Railway Museum's catenary / trolley wire is set up to accommodate both equipment with trolley poles and/or pantographs. if you invest in the proper overhead infrastructure, you need not limit yourself to the use of a trolley pole only.

6-18003 wrote:
A question - this is a big "what if." Steamtown has one powered MU car and three trailers. Theoretically, could they convert one of the trailers to accommodate a prime mover and generate enough juice to operate normally? I am also curious what it would take to beef up a heavyweight enough to carry all that equipment.

Thoughts?


Would it not be a better idea to simply rewire the power car so that it can run on the Electric City line from Steamtown, up to Montage?

Correct me if I'm wrong; It is my understanding that one of the ECTM's former Philadelphia trolleys cars can handle maybe 40-50 people comfortably on a single trip. A DL&W MU power car / trailer combination should (theoretically) be able to carry 140 people per trip. If, as Robert suggests, a top speed of 15 miles per hour could be obtained, then would it not be a perfect way to showcase the MU technology while accommodating larger crowds per trip, all the while retaining the ability to still be able to run any streetcar they might wish to operate as well?

It strikes me that restoring a Lackawanna MU to working order could actually be a wise investment. I keep checking out the Western Railway Museum's and the East Troy Railway's museums Facebook pages and wonder why a Lackawanna MU has not yet returned to service as well.....

I, for one, would love to travel on a self propelled Lackawanna MU again.

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Eric S. Strohmeyer
CNJ Rail Corporation


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