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 Post subject: Re: Operating Steam Engines From Before 1900
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:00 am 

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm
Posts: 201
This is a really fascinating post. I'm also proud of the engines on the roster I've gotten to see / ride behind including the lovely #154 that the OP works on.

Any railfan really needs to get out to Nevada State for their 4th of July Event to see 3 steam locomotives, 2 of them wood burning, in operation (and the V&T is a short drive away with 1 or 2 more fired up depending on the year.)

Likewise for the Henry Ford, the "Baldwin #7" is one of the prettiest engines operating in the U.S., in my humble opinion of course. And during the Henry Ford's event days like the old car & ragtime festival, they'll have 2 steam trains running.


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 Post subject: Re: Operating Steam Engines From Before 1900
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:28 am 

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:28 am
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Location: Suffolk, UK
survivingworldsteam wrote:
What is the oldest operational engine in regular service in the world? I think EIR 22 "Fairy Queen" a 5' 6" guage 2-2-2 built by Kitson, Thompson & Hewitson in 1855 at the New Delhi Railway Museum, New Delhi still holds that title, although I think L&M "Lion" of 1838 and KKStB 289.1 "Licaon", a 2-4-0ST built by StEG in 1852 are also still operational.


The L&M Lion is now installed in a relatively new museum building in Liverpool, and, as far as I'm aware, is beyond being steamed again. It was reported recently that a group is interested in producing a replica of its sister loco ("Tiger" from memory) ready for the 2029 bicentenary of the lines opening.
Oldest loco working in the UK seems now to be the Furness Railway #20...
http://www.furnessrailwaytrust.org.uk/fr20story.htm
...though it has undergone a few changes since the 1860's!

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 Post subject: Re: Operating Steam Engines From Before 1900
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:29 am 

Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:39 am
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survivingworldsteam wrote:
RookieFireman wrote:
Thank you! I gathered this info off of steamlocomotive.info (man, it would be nice to have a large spreadsheet covering all of this stuff...) so I was not entirely confident that it would be 100% accurate.


This was exactly what I developed my Surviving World Steam Locomotive database for starting back in the 1990s; and worldwide on top of that. Unfortunately, the project grew too big, and time and interest by others grew too little to keep it going. Also, there is "operational" in that in theory you could fill it with water and fuel and go, and "operational" in that it has a current boiler certificate and is regularly operated.
Anyway, here were go:

The John Bull of 1831 in the Smithsonian was briefly operated at one point in the past; but I doubt they will ever do that again. So it shouldn't count.

B&O 25 4-4-0 "William Mason" of 1856 was restored and used in filming the movie "The Wild Wild West." I take it the boiler certification has expired?

V&T 18 4-4-0 "Dayton" of 1873 was also operational at one time, but I also assume it's boiler time has expired.

Is "Chloe", Walt Kimball's 3ft 0-4-2T built in 1883 still operational?

There is a Gypsy logging engine named "Falk" and built by Marshultz & Cantrell in 1884 and located at the Northern Counties Logging Museum that was operational during the 1990s; I don't know if it still is.

Is D&R 8 4-4-0 "Jupiter" also with Dayton in the NV State RR Museum operational; I assume it's boiler certificate has expired.

Someone already mentioned Sespe of 1891.

Is Argent Lumber 6 3ft 2-6-0 of 1891 at the Midwest Central RR still operational?

Another Gypsy logging engine named "Gypsy", built by Marshultz & Cantrell in 1892 and located at the Northern Counties Logging Museum; was operational in the 1990s.

Salmon Creek Railroad, owned by Jim Walsh, had Alaska Mining "Seward", a Porter built in 1892 operational in the 1990s; don't know it's current status.

Someone already mentioned Godchaux Sugar 3 at Disneyland.

S. D. Warren Co. 10188 2ft 0-4-0T, a Baldwin of 1895 was operational at Boothbay RY Village; I don't know it's current status.

"Lydia" a 3ft gauge 0-4-0 Porter built in 1897 from the Patoutville Sugar Plantation in Louisiana is operational at Six Flags Over Texas in Arlington.

Tanana Valley RR #1, a 3ft 0-4-0T Porter built in 1899 is/was operational at Pioneer Park, 2300 Airport Way, Fairbanks, AK.

Acadia Coal Co 42, a 2-6-0 Schenectady built in 1899, was operational at Salem and Hillsboro. RR; but I believe it is gone now and don't know it's current status.

There are some in Canada and Mexico that fall in your timeframe as well that are/were operational.

What is the oldest operational engine in regular service in the world? I think EIR 22 "Fairy Queen" a 5' 6" guage 2-2-2 built by Kitson, Thompson & Hewitson in 1855 at the New Delhi Railway Museum, New Delhi still holds that title, although I think L&M "Lion" of 1838 and KKStB 289.1 "Licaon", a 2-4-0ST built by StEG in 1852 are also still operational.


Thanks so much for this information. There are definitely several on here that I was not aware of, or completely overlooked (namely the 2-6-0 in Iowa).

Updating again, I've attached what I now have for operating/under restoration engines.

I find it very fascinating that the age of several park engines (Six Flags, Disneyland, etc) is so great. This is especially true at Disneyland, where you have an 1870s engine operating alongside a new-build from the 1950s.

I do think that a publicly accessible, easily searchable database for this information would be useful... but man that would be a large undertaking.


Attachments:
OldSteamExcel3.JPG
OldSteamExcel3.JPG [ 129.22 KiB | Viewed 318 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Operating Steam Engines From Before 1900
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:45 am 
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RookieFireman wrote:
I do think that a publicly accessible, easily searchable database for this information would be useful... but man that would be a large undertaking.


Doug Bailey's steamlocomotive.info site does the job for most people, and allows the public to enter comments and add pictures. I can do deeper dives in my database for queries such as yours, but few people want to look at that level of detail.

Mine was a desktop program that I sold on CD. It worked well in the days before cell phones and WiFi made the internet available everywhere. Once these two things came on the scene, interest in the database dried up.

I eventually expanded my project to also include steam vehicles, steamships, rolling stock, and even stationary steam engines; I ended up with over 41,000 steam engines from nearly every country in the world, and pictures of over 6,000 of them.

But yes, I found out it was impossible for one person to keep current, and when interest wanned, I mothballed the entire project.

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 Post subject: Re: Operating Steam Engines From Before 1900
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:03 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:34 am
Posts: 446
Location: Port Jefferson, NY (LIRR MP 57.5)
survivingworldsteam wrote:
S. D. Warren Co. 10188 2ft 0-4-0T, a Baldwin of 1895 was operational at Boothbay RY Village; I don't know it's current status.


S.D. Warren No. 2 returned to service after a lengthy restoration completed just this year (2018), so the engine is definitely operational.

-Philip Marshall


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 Post subject: Re: Operating Steam Engines From Before 1900
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:39 pm 

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Location: Port Jefferson, NY (LIRR MP 57.5)
There are several noteworthy engines operating on the Welsh narrow gauge lines in the UK.

The Ffestiniog Railway's 0-4-0Ts Prince (George England, 1863) and Palmerston (George England, 1864) are both serviceable, and Welsh Pony (George England, 1867) is under restoration at Boston Lodge Works and will soon rejoin her sisters in operation. (There are very few if any original parts from the 1860s remaining on these locomotives, but like the Ship of Theseus they retain their identities nonetheless.)

On the Talyllyn Railway, 0-4-0T No. 2 Dolgoch (Fletcher Jennings, 1866) is operational, having received a new boiler in 2011), but I see reports that 0-4-2T No. 1 Talyllyn (Fletcher Jennings, 1864) is currently out of service. However, 0-4-2T No. 3 Sir Haydn (Hughes, 1878) was returned to operation earlier this year.

Yes, that makes at least four (and soon to be five) narrow gauge engines of pre-1880 construction still in operating condition.

Also worth noting on the other side of the Irish Sea, the Railway Preservation Society of Ireland's 5'3" broad gauge 0-6-0 No. 186 (Sharp Stewart, 1879) was operational as recently as 2014 when her 10-year boiler certificate expired. (RPSI's shops at Whitehead are in Northern Ireland so they are under UK boiler regulations.)

-Philip Marshall


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 Post subject: Re: Operating Steam Engines From Before 1900
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:07 pm 

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 5:45 pm
Posts: 263
Grapevine Vintage Railroad 1895 ex-SP Cooke 4-6-0 is undergoing rebuild.

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 Post subject: Re: Operating Steam Engines From Before 1900
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:50 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:39 am
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Andy Nold wrote:
Grapevine Vintage Railroad 1895 ex-SP Cooke 4-6-0 is undergoing rebuild.


Another one that was definitely an unfortunate omission on my part.

I've again attached the most updated list below.

Pretty impressive that there are nearly 30 engines built before 1900 either operating or under restoration--although I'm sure I have overlooked some restorations as well.


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OldSteamExcel4.JPG
OldSteamExcel4.JPG [ 139.73 KiB | Viewed 203 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Operating Steam Engines From Before 1900
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:51 pm 

Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:00 pm
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To reply to the intent of the OP; it might be useful to have some factoids to share. Maybe like, when built: electricity in houses was 30 years away, there were no motor cars or motor boats, no trucks, only 42 states, most mail went by horseback, airplanes were 30 years away.. etc.

I just made up those timelines, but I am sure it conveys the idea.

Oh, can we get the 1888 Cook V + T #8 on the list?


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 Post subject: Re: Operating Steam Engines From Before 1900
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:25 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:39 am
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Kimball wrote:
To reply to the intent of the OP; it might be useful to have some factoids to share. Maybe like, when built: electricity in houses was 30 years away, there were no motor cars or motor boats, no trucks, only 42 states, most mail went by horseback, airplanes were 30 years away.. etc.

I just made up those timelines, but I am sure it conveys the idea.

Oh, can we get the 1888 Cook V + T #8 on the list?


Is this the engine you're referring to?

From the information I can find, it seems to have seen service a few years ago but is now out of service.

Photo credit to J.PO on railpictures.net


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VT8.JPG
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 Post subject: Re: Operating Steam Engines From Before 1900
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:47 pm 
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RookieFireman wrote:
Pretty impressive that there are nearly 30 engines built before 1900 either operating or under restoration--although I'm sure I have overlooked some restorations as well.


There are some, the engine at Grapevine being one of them, that I also overlooked because they were under restoration/repair the last time I updated my database. Here are some other possibilities:

Railtown 1897 State Historical Park was restoring or repairing former CRI&P 82, an 0-4-0T built in the CRI&P (Silvis Shops) in 1884. I don't know if it was just comestic, or what the current state is.

Has Scott Wicket completed his restoration of Smith-Powers Logging 3; a two-truck Shay built by Lima in 1887? It sounds like he was also part of the organization who just restored Skookum.

Kentucky RY Museum was working on 0-4-2T #4 "Hercules"; the only tram engine in the United States that still retains it's car body. Again, I don't know if it was strictly cosmetic, or to operational condition.

Greenfield Village in Dearborn was also restoring DT&I #4; a 4-4-0 built by Baldwin in 1897.

Midwest Central RR was working on FCyZ #1, a 3ft 2-8-0 built by Baldwin in 1897.

While I was playing around with the data, I put the following graph together of steam survivors by type and year. The number of steam survivors begins to taper off after 1902, the beginning of the zenith of steam power; anything from about 1850 or earlier is truely rare.


Attachments:
File comment: Steam survivors by year
BY_YEAR.gif
BY_YEAR.gif [ 11.79 KiB | Viewed 173 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Operating Steam Engines From Before 1900
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:53 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:39 am
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survivingworldsteam wrote:
RookieFireman wrote:
Pretty impressive that there are nearly 30 engines built before 1900 either operating or under restoration--although I'm sure I have overlooked some restorations as well.


There are some, the engine at Grapevine being one of them, that I also overlooked because they were under restoration/repair the last time I updated my database. Here are some other possibilities:

Railtown 1897 State Historical Park was restoring or repairing former CRI&P 82, an 0-4-0T built in the CRI&P (Silvis Shops) in 1884. I don't know if it was just comestic, or what the current state is.

Has Scott Wicket completed his restoration of Smith-Powers Logging 3; a two-truck Shay built by Lima in 1887? It sounds like he was also part of the organization who just restored Skookum.

Kentucky RY Museum was working on 0-4-2T #4 "Hercules"; the only tram engine in the United States that still retains it's car body. Again, I don't know if it was strictly cosmetic, or to operational condition.

Greenfield Village in Dearborn was also restoring DT&I #4; a 4-4-0 built by Baldwin in 1897.

Midwest Central RR was working on FCyZ #1, a 3ft 2-8-0 built by Baldwin in 1897.

While I was playing around with the data, I put the following graph together of steam survivors by type and year. The number of steam survivors begins to taper off after 1902, the beginning of the zenith of steam power; anything from about 1850 or earlier is truely rare.



I'll look into some of those engines tonight--I believe the DT&I #4 you mention might be the D&LN #7 I have listed? I could be wrong there, I am not familiar with that operation.

As for your graph... now THAT is the data I was hoping to find here! Spectacular.


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 Post subject: Re: Operating Steam Engines From Before 1900
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:00 pm 
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RookieFireman wrote:
I believe the DT&I #4 you mention might be the D&LN #7 I have listed? I could be wrong there, I am not familiar with that operation.


Yes, you are correct; my mistake in transcribing the information from my database to my browser.

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 Post subject: Re: Operating Steam Engines From Before 1900
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:25 pm 

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survivingworldsteam wrote:


Kentucky RY Museum was working on 0-4-2T #4 "Hercules"; the only tram engine in the United States that still retains it's car body. Again, I don't know if it was strictly cosmetic, or to operational condition.


This one kind of shocked me. "Hercules" (0-4-2RT tram engine # 4) was long on display at Mammoth Cave National Park. I had seen the locomotive on display there a few years ago, under cover and in good cosmetic condition. I'm surprised that KRM acquired the extremely rare engine. Or are they just working on it at the park? A bit strange if the later is the case.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: Operating Steam Engines From Before 1900
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:29 pm 
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Omaha's Henry Doorly Zoo operates a 30" gage 0-6-2T that was built in 1890 by Kraus of Linz, Austria.

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