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 Post subject: 567B to BC Conversion - EMD MIs?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:59 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:05 pm
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I have a 16-567B engine that I am wanting to upgrade. The long-term plan is to make a 16-645BC engine out of it. Step two in that process - the conversion from 567 to 645 power assemblies - is covered in MI 9647, which was very kindly shared with me. But before I can get there, I need to change out the water manifold arrangement on the 567B, effectively taking the first steps in converting it to a BC engine.

My question is, did EMD ever release a Maintenance Instruction or other documentation covering the conversion of an engine from 567B to 567BC, or can anyone point me toward similar resources?

Thanks in advance
Jody Moore
Canon City, CO


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 Post subject: Re: 567B to BC Conversion - EMD MIs?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:58 pm 
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Here is a discussion of this from 2017:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=41443

PC

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 Post subject: Re: 567B to BC Conversion - EMD MIs?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:36 pm 

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I did see that discussion when I searched the forum, but unless I missed it, this doesn’t answer the question, which was whether or not EMD ever released a Maintenance Instruction covering the B to BC conversion.


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 Post subject: Re: 567B to BC Conversion - EMD MIs?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:52 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:05 pm
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That being said, I’d imagine that H&K would be a good resource.

My vision is to convert the engine from 567B to use 645 power assemblies, which means the added step of conversion to BC is in there as well, at least as far as converting the water manifold before applying 645PAs.

This is a bit beyond what I have ever done before, so it’s “learn as you go.” Which means that I might ask dumb questions every so often. Like this one: I see part numbers for an H&K manifold for a 645 application; would I want to just use that one, and the associated inlet pipes, etc., or is there a correct one for 567 applications?


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 Post subject: Re: 567B to BC Conversion - EMD MIs?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:34 pm 
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The BC conversion involves machining the upper liner pilot bore in the crankcase (567C liner upper pilot is larger diameter) for each cylinder, machining the upper water deck plate for each cylinder (to clear the water jacket of the 567C liner), machining the lower water deck plate of each cylinder (to accept lower liner inserts), removing the water delivery pipe from the water deck to end sheet on each bank of cylinders, and machining the end sheets to accept 567C water manifolds. EMD did not issue any customer document showing how to do the machining and welding for this procedure, it was offered as part of their factory remanufacturing services.

PC

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 Post subject: Re: 567B to BC Conversion - EMD MIs?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:47 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:14 am
Posts: 214
Unless you absolutely want to stay with the B block, you may be further ahead (both financially and time spent) to replace the entire engine with a C block or newer. I have seen many 16-567c and newer running take outs listed for sale recently. My advice is talk to Hatch And Kirk. They will be very honest and up front with you about what all is involved and the costs. When I was looking I could find running C blocks for less than half the cost of an AC or BC conversion.
Good luck!


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 Post subject: Re: 567B to BC Conversion - EMD MIs?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:39 pm 

Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:22 pm
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H and K told me they don't sell these kits anymore.


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 Post subject: Re: 567B to BC Conversion - EMD MIs?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:12 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:09 pm
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dwa2503107 wrote:
H and K told me they don't sell these kits anymore.


I am not really surprised by this. At the end of the day, I imagine the number of commercial users of 567/567A/567B's are dwindling every year, with more and more newer power coming into the market.

Arthur Ivans of H&K shared this with the NJ Shortline RR Assn. earlier this year:

Quote:
Hatch & Kirk.
Art Ivans said that usable core material for 567 and 645 engines is becoming harder to
find and that prices of parts for these engines were going up because we have to use more
new parts. There is no shortage of parts, just higher prices, especially for the 567
engines. “Don’t let locomotives with these engines rust away.”

http://njshortline.com/Library/2018_jan ... inutes.pdf


Something for everyone to keep in mind.


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 Post subject: Re: 567B to BC Conversion - EMD MIs?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:11 pm 
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You can see the decline in the use of the 567 series engines in:

1) Declining number of questions being received on parts and technical issues.

2) Fewer requests for training classes from marine and industrial customers.

3) Rapidly declining prices for manuals and parts books on eBay (and more of them being sold).

Forty years ago, when we taught 567 engine classes, EMD had no manuals left, they had all sold out, there were none to be found on the market, everybody valued their original copies and would not part with them, so you had to have duplicates printed.

Twenty years ago, we were still having the duplicate manuals printed, because originals had become "collectors items" in the hobby, were very expensive, and it was a lot cheaper to get duplicates printed than try to buy originals.

Nowadays, you can buy the originals much cheaper than you can print a duplicate, because there are so many on the market from estates of railroad employees and collectors who have passed, and few new hobbyists who are seeing them. But there is also now little need for them because there are so few requests to do classes, due to the rapid decline in 567s left in service.

PC

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 Post subject: Re: 567B to BC Conversion - EMD MIs?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:35 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:09 pm
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While on the topic of conversion's, something I have been pondering: I know of several 12-567's in tugboats that were rebuilt into C blocks (12-567CA on the tag). They have C block internals, as well as round access doors, however kept the A block blower ducts as well as the top deck, complete with external fuel lines and older coffin covers. I know of one such engine that actually kept the square lower crankcase doors, yet has round airbox doors. All of these are former LST engines.

Was this rebuild done by EMD? And, was this same rebuild done in any rail equipment? I dont think I have ever seen one of these older A block upgrades on a locomotive.

Image
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 Post subject: Re: 567B to BC Conversion - EMD MIs?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:27 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
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Just for the record, I had the impression that the OP was thinking he was going to get a 645 out of rebuilding a B-block 567. I thought PC and some others had made it very clear that while the conversion involves 645 power assemblies and dynamic rebalancing in a number of places, the result will [i]almost necessarily[i] be derated (at the governor or rack) to typical 567B horsepower (and maybe a bit lower due to effects of the increased reciprocating mass).

Hopefully PC will either give detailed discussion or point to prior posts (or other definitive discussion material) that confirms what is necessary.

Just for the record, I am a card-carrying member of the 'replace the engine with a good C-block or later running takeout' society.

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 Post subject: Re: 567B to BC Conversion - EMD MIs?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:35 am 
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Nova55 wrote:
Was this rebuild done by EMD? And, was this same rebuild done in any rail equipment? I dont think I have ever seen one of these older A block upgrades on a locomotive.


I believe most of the CA engines were built new as "direct replacement" spares for 567ATL engines. Note the very unusual oil pan, not like locomotive applications. Years ago a quasi-government agency near me was repowering a vessel and they were provided with two surplus CA engines new in the crates. They got many years of service out of them, the ship was scrapped, the engines are probably still running somewhere.

I have since then seen the CA engines adapted to other applications, including industrial and power generation.

I have not encountered any comparable hybrids in the locomotive replacement programs, but some independent shops may have built similar engines. A number of years back, when a 567B engine buried deep in a building threw a rod through the base rail, there was a plan made to bring in just a 567C case, pan, shaft and power assemblies as components, to build the replacement engine right in the basement taking most of the rest of the parts from the failed engine.

PC

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 Post subject: Re: 567B to BC Conversion - EMD MIs?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:52 pm 
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Overmod wrote:
Hopefully PC will either give detailed discussion or point to prior posts (or other definitive discussion material) that confirms what is necessary.


This is already well documented in Bulletins #106 and #109 of the EMD Unit Exchange and Factory Rebuilding Guide. This was available to their customers. Copies of this appear on eBay from time to time. Hopefully the preservationists understand the value of such material and make an effort to preserve same when it is offered.

PC

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