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 Post subject: Re: BART's Original Rolling Stock: A Preservation Challenge?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:04 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:49 pm
Posts: 143
Location: Los Altos, CA
Joe Magruder wrote:
We are finding that it is much more difficult to keep electric railway equipment built in recent years operating than it is to keep equipment that is more than a century old operating. For historical reasons it is important that we preserve equipment like the BART cars, or light rail cars from current operations, but I am afraid that we will have to accept that the best we will be able do is well-interpreted static display.


Yes. This amplifies my proposal that the best option for preservation of a BART train would be a heritage train maintained by that agency. Bay area transit agencies have a good awareness of history, see MUNI, heritage weekend. Hopefully, BART would see this as a positive PR expense.

I am all for the option of BART sending a car or two up to Rio Vista Jct, but I wouldn't expect to see it run.

BH


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 Post subject: Re: BART's Original Rolling Stock: A Preservation Challenge?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:07 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:49 pm
Posts: 143
Location: Los Altos, CA
This morning I sent the following message to BART via https://www.bart.gov/contact/comments

"The upcoming retirement of BART's "legacy" cars has been in the news recently, and I understand that BART is at the beginning of a process of developing a plan to dispose of A, B and C cars. Of these, the "A" cars are the ones everyone recognizes because they have the sleek front ends. I believe that BART should maintain a "nostalgia train" of 2 A cars and a B car. Preserving a set of equipment in-house would allow infrequent operation for special occasions. Charter trips for enthusiasts could help pay for maintenance. While I also support donating cars to off-line museums, BART's non-standard track gauge makes it doubtful that the cars could ever operate."


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 Post subject: Re: BART's Original Rolling Stock: A Preservation Challenge?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:50 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:43 am
Posts: 603
While I am far away and would have little to do with it...

Why not a blend of ideas? A non-profit that has a spur off of BART's system who has operating privileges? Surely there are local riders, operators, mechanics, current and retired who don't want to see these cars vanish? I would recommend that if a facility had to be purchased, get one large enough to potentially store several sets, and retain spares and special tools that might otherwise be lost....


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 Post subject: Re: BART's Original Rolling Stock: A Preservation Challenge?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:28 pm 

Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:40 pm
Posts: 213
Location: San Francisco, CA
Folks,
I am a member of the Bay Area Electric Railroad Association aka Western Railway Museum; but not in the management. So this just my two cents.

Any BART car or cars we acqure would have to be static because of the non standard track gauge, 750 Volt AC power and all that electronic gear. Also it is a heavy rail subway/surface car.

Our electric collection is all streetcar and Interurbans basicly-- light rail equipment. We now own a MUNI LRV from 1978 and two San Diego LRVs from 1982. There are any number of LRVs from San Jose and Sacramento coming up for retirement: in standard gauge and 600 volt DC powered. If the Collections Committee and later the Trustees decide that more modern equipment is needed; then let it be some of those cars!

Ted Miles WRM Volunteer


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 Post subject: Re: BART's Original Rolling Stock: A Preservation Challenge?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:23 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:49 pm
Posts: 143
Location: Los Altos, CA
psa188 wrote:
This morning I sent the following message to BART via https://www.bart.gov/contact/comments

"The upcoming retirement of BART's "legacy" cars has been in the news recently, and I understand that BART is at the beginning of a process of developing a plan to dispose of A, B and C cars. Of these, the "A" cars are the ones everyone recognizes because they have the sleek front ends. I believe that BART should maintain a "nostalgia train" of 2 A cars and a B car. Preserving a set of equipment in-house would allow infrequent operation for special occasions. Charter trips for enthusiasts could help pay for maintenance. While I also support donating cars to off-line museums, BART's non-standard track gauge makes it doubtful that the cars could ever operate."


And this afternoon, I heard back from Michael J Moran at BART Customer Service.

He wrote "Thank you for contacting us. The suggestion about preserving some representative vehicles has been brought up for consideration a few times. Consideration will require a suitable location that can accommodate the storage without interfering with the future, larger fleet."

I am not familiar with BART's plans for yard capacity so I cannot comment further.


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 Post subject: Re: BART's Original Rolling Stock: A Preservation Challenge?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:48 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3535
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
psa188 wrote:

And this afternoon, I heard back from Michael J Moran at BART Customer Service.

He wrote "Thank you for contacting us. The suggestion about preserving some representative vehicles has been brought up for consideration a few times. Consideration will require a suitable location that can accommodate the storage without interfering with the future, larger fleet."

I am not familiar with BART's plans for yard capacity so I cannot comment further.


Sounds like they are going to have a space problem, which means someone is going to have to come up with some money for a storage facility or barn with access to BART trackage.


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 Post subject: Re: BART's Original Rolling Stock: A Preservation Challenge?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:08 am 

Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:05 pm
Posts: 70
J3a-614 wrote:
Sounds like they are going to have a space problem, which means someone is going to have to come up with some money for a storage facility or barn with access to BART trackage.


If this is the course of action that has to be taken priority #1 should be to own the land where the preserved BART cars will be stored followed by #2 a structure to house said cars.

Remember what can happen if an organization does not own the land!

For example if BART needs more yard space in the future and this building to store preserved BART cars is on BART owned land what would prevent BART from evicting the organization/tearing down the building in order to expand yard trackage?


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 Post subject: Re: BART's Original Rolling Stock: A Preservation Challenge?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:53 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 9184
Location: Somewhere north of Prescott, AZ on the Santa Fe "Peavine"
Much as I may agree with the idea that private land ownership is the guarantee of your future, in THIS specific case it's probably NOT feasible.

Unless you are the likes of the Illinois Railway Museum and/or have the wherewithal to build a separate broad-gauge subway line with third rail, the only way anything like this will operate in the future is with the explicit cooperation of BART. We've seen prototypes for the operation of vintage transit equipment on current transit lines, from NYCTA to Chicago to London.

Trying to purchase the track space for a separate carhouse at an extant BART yard is probably not going to happen. And I doubt the cost to install a switch to a siding.carhouse on private property lineside would go over well with BART either. So you make whatever arrangements for a cooperative arrangement with BART, with Plan B being a museum to move them to should a "scorched Earth" edict come down from administration.


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 Post subject: Re: BART's Original Rolling Stock: A Preservation Challenge?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:42 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:46 am
Posts: 2543
Location: S.F. Bay Area
At risk of repeating myself, you re-truck the cars with the most suitable standard gage trucks you can find, and the WMATA Rohr car trucks would be a pretty ideal choice if any remain. BART cars are notably light; 35-38 tons.

This also gives the opportunity to address voltage and motor-control problems.


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 Post subject: Re: BART's Original Rolling Stock: A Preservation Challenge?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:43 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:49 pm
Posts: 143
Location: Los Altos, CA
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
Much as I may agree with the idea that private land ownership is the guarantee of your future, in THIS specific case it's probably NOT feasible.

Trying to purchase the track space for a separate carhouse at an extant BART yard is probably not going to happen. And I doubt the cost to install a switch to a siding. carhouse on private property lineside would go over well with BART either. So you make whatever arrangements for a cooperative arrangement with BART, with Plan B being a museum to move them to should a "scorched Earth" edict come down from administration.


I do not know of a rail transit system that allows access to its system. [please correct me if I'm wrong] I can't see BART allowing someone else to operate trains on its lines. If BART cannot find room to store a vintage train we will probably will have to settle for a static exhibit somewhere. Anyway, it would not hurt if more people would send comments via that online form. If several comments come in, they might see that there is interest in preservation


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 Post subject: Re: BART's Original Rolling Stock: A Preservation Challenge?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:03 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 12:59 pm
Posts: 569
psa188 wrote:
I do not know of a rail transit system that allows access to its system. [please correct me if I'm wrong] I can't see BART allowing someone else to operate trains on its lines. If BART cannot find room to store a vintage train we will probably will have to settle for a static exhibit somewhere. Anyway, it would not hurt if more people would send comments via that online form. If several comments come in, they might see that there is interest in preservation

I agree. Given BART's highly-automated control system, and also how critical BART is to the Bay Area transportation system, the real question is "would BART operate someone else's train on its system?" and, "if so, at what time of the day (or night)?" BART obviously would not want some vintage equipment to fail in the Transbay Tube (for example) and disrupt commute operations.

To repeat David Johnston's earlier comments,which would also apply to privately-owned equipment in terms of the maintenance standards which would be required:
Quote:
To operate a car at BART it must receive regular maintenance and inspections. It does not seem likely that BART would want to retain an inventory of necessary parts and train and certify mechanics and electronic technicians to maintain a fleet of 3 cars, which is the minimum allowable train length. Also each A car has a complete set of automatic train control equipment worth, I would estimate, over $100,000. This equipment would be transferred to the new cars or used to maintain the C car fleet. It seems unlikely that any A and B cars will be retained by BART for operation on the system.

I just rode one of BART's new trains this afternoon. To me, the only difference is the arrangement of the seats, another set of doors, and a bike rack inside each car. The ride experience is not really different between a heritage train and one of the new ones.

I think the only practical long-term solution is static display of original BART cars at museums (WRM, and possibly other museums), and if people want to experience a BART ride just ride a current train.


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 Post subject: Re: BART's Original Rolling Stock: A Preservation Challenge?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:09 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:58 pm
Posts: 1259
Location: Chicago USA
No one would expect them to allow outsiders to run trains. But another entity could house, maintain, and statically exhibit the vintage equipment which would occasionally be run by BART crews (after inspection by BART personnel). It might be cleaner legally if the equipment remains BART property but with some binding agreement with the other entity to transfer ownership if BART wants out (so they can't just scrap it).


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 Post subject: Re: BART's Original Rolling Stock: A Preservation Challenge?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:37 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3535
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Story on the pending retirements.

https://www.rtands.com/passenger/rapid- ... GbpgLwt0QM


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 Post subject: Re: BART's Original Rolling Stock: A Preservation Challenge?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:30 am 

Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:46 pm
Posts: 12
Location: Walnut Creek, CA
If Bart cars come to WRM or any museum they will be static displays. I envision the cars displayed outside with some sort of shelter over them. Inside the car should be some kind of history of the Bart system and maybe a nod to its predecessors. Bart is part of on average 423,400 people's lives that ride the system on a weekday. Any person seeing an old bart car in a museum will really be amazed to see something that was once a part of there lives.

As for keeping newer LRV cars running it certainly is more of an challenge. The Boeing car at WRM has yet to ever carry a passenger at the museum. One of our members is a electrical engineer and is familiar with the tech of the era. We are finally getting the car closer to running again. while working on the car we left the doors open for guests to see whats going on. It was very warming the amount of complements we received on trying to make her move again. This car was retired in 1998, 21 years ago so its now becoming nostalgic for many people!

Bart cars in a museum will bring the same joy to people in the future!

Ryan Blake


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