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 Post subject: Re: Winton Engine Models
PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 7:29 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:09 pm
Posts: 434
EJ Berry wrote:
Winton built heavy marine diesels before the 201. "Boss" Kettering had diesels in both of his yachts, and according to his bio (Charles F. Kettering: A Biography By Thomas Alvin Boyd) they led to GM purchasing Winton.

I assume "201A 1934 4605" is the engine in the Pioneer Zephyr.

"16-201A Diesel 1934 4621 1st Submarine Diesel" shows the next number is 4637; this is the USN order for 16 engines to power four Porpoise Class submarines, SS-172-175, introducing diesel-electric propulsion to submarines. These each had four 16-201A's and were the prototypes for the USN's fleet submarines of WWII. During WWII, these boats' 16-201A's were replaced with 12-278A's.

Phil Mulligan


Of which 8 are still in use today in Great Lakes Towing tugs, having been resold through Cleveland at the end of the war when the subs were broken up.

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 Post subject: Re: Winton Engine Models
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:42 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:53 pm
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EJ Berry wrote:
four Porpoise Class submarines, SS-172-175, introducing diesel-electric propulsion to submarines


I'm curious about this statement. Maybe there is some qualifying context that I missed? The British, Germans, and Americans all had diesel-electric boats during World War I, some twenty years prior to the Porpoise class.

JR


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 Post subject: Re: Winton Engine Models
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:28 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:54 am
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Location: NJ
Maybe the Porpoise class subs were the first to have Winton diesels? Previous subs had engines from other manufacturer?


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 Post subject: Re: Winton Engine Models
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:44 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:51 pm
Posts: 1769
Location: Southern California
John Redden wrote:
EJ Berry wrote:
four Porpoise Class submarines, SS-172-175, introducing diesel-electric propulsion to submarines
I'm curious about this statement. Maybe there is some qualifying context that I missed? The British, Germans, and Americans all had diesel-electric boats during World War I, some twenty years prior to the Porpoise class.
EDM wrote:
Maybe the Porpoise class subs were the first to have Winton diesels? Previous subs had engines from other manufacturer?

I wish my books were not packed up and stored offsite. One of these could probably answer this question. It is Diesels for the First Stealth Weapon: Submarine Power 1902-1945 by Lyle Cummins. Lyle Cummins is the son of Clessie Cummins developer of the Cummins diesel. Lyle has written several books; one about his father and others about the development of the diesel engine. One of these other books is Internal Fire: The Internal Combustion Engine 1673-1900 and Diesel's Engine: From Conception to 1918.

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 Post subject: Re: Winton Engine Models
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:47 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
Posts: 332
Location: Philadelphia, PA
USN and other subs prior to the Porpoise boats were propelled on the surface by diesel-direct drive.

For example the USN WWI design "S-boats" had two heavy diesels each with a clutch, motor/generator, another clutch, then the screw (propeller). On the surface for maximum speed, both clutches were engaged and both engines drove the screws. Underwater, the forward clutches next to the diesels were disengaged and the batteries powered the motor/generator as a motor. On the surface, for charging, the aft clutch was disengaged and the diesel drove the motor/generator as a generator. One diesel generated power to recharge the batteries while the other diesel propelled the boat.

On a Porpoise the four diesels had generators attached as in a locomotive. The two screws each had two electric motors geared to the shaft and the boat was electric propelled both on the surface and underwater. Some later boats in the 1930's had fluid couplings so two of the diesels could provide some direct drive on the surface, but that proved unnecessary and the WWII Fleet Boats were pure diesel electric as in the FY34 Porpoise boats.

Phil Mulligan


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 Post subject: Re: Winton Engine Models
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:46 am 
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I would recommend the book "The Fleet Submarine in the U. S. Navy" by Commander John D. Alden USN (Retired) published by U. S. Naval Institute Press in 1979 for those interested in a very detailed explanation of the progression of propulsion features of each of the classes of USN fleet submarines.

PC

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 Post subject: Re: Winton Engine Models
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:34 am 

Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:09 pm
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I second Preston and highly recommend that book. It is really the bible of USN Fleet Subs, and has damn near every detail one could imagine, boat by boat.

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 Post subject: Re: Winton Engine Models
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:09 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:51 pm
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Location: Southern California
PCook wrote:
I would recommend the book "The Fleet Submarine in the U. S. Navy" by Commander John D. Alden USN (Retired) published by U. S. Naval Institute Press in 1979 for those interested in a very detailed explanation of the progression of propulsion features of each of the classes of USN fleet submarines.
Not in the current Naval Institute Press catalog. The sellers at AbeBooks.com have 24 copies listed.

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 Post subject: Re: Winton Engine Models
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:36 pm 
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And six of the books currently listed on eBay.

PC

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