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 Post subject: Re: That Other Articulated - WMSR #1309 - Update photos 04/2
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:17 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:28 pm
Posts: 336
Location: Northern WV
Excuse du jour

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 Post subject: Re: That Other Articulated - WMSR #1309 - Update photos 04/2
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:08 pm 

Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:51 pm
Posts: 110
I suspect that it is difficult for a tourist railroad in the WMSR's position to avoid the temptation to set deadlines and start selling tickets. They've sunk a ton of money into this endeavor and are probably in a rather difficult position financially. So obviously, they want to start the revenue flowing as soon as the locomotive is ready, but they won't know that date for sure until they actually get it buttoned up and get a little trouble-free running time on it. If they wait until then to pull the trigger on selling tickets, there will likely be a time lag until the potential ridership learns of it and makes plans for a visit. Unless things have changed, they'd probably also like to run some special events as fund-raisers, such as the photo charters that were scheduled a couple of years back. Unfortunately, the potential patronage for that may not be so quick to commit large sums of money as they were last time.....at least until they see a running locomotive. Put me in that category. It took some doing to get my money back after the last go-around.

They're in a difficult position. They've taken a plunge into the deep end with 1309 and I really don't think the folks who made the decisions early on really had any kind of a handle on what they were getting into. I always thought their money would have been better spent doing a complete overhaul on the 734. I hope they can make this situation work.

/Kevin Madore


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 Post subject: Re: That Other Articulated - WMSR #1309 - Update photos 04/2
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:12 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 10:28 pm
Posts: 230
bigjim4life wrote:
Guess what? Guess, go ahead, I'll wait:

https://www.times-news.com/news/local_n ... ZftHT3kJGA

Now, they find that not only do they need to postpone the July debut - they now need an extra $150K for tie replacement and trackwork in order to accommodate the engine.

Can't make this stuff up, folks...


Go ride the train and look at the roadbed. If you've been there recently, you wouldn't be surprised with this announcement. That trackwork is going to have to be done regardless of what is running over it. Read the tea leaves--they are hurting. It's rather obvious that they have been running on a shoestring budget for some time now over a combination of issues, and deferred maintenance while trying to keep your head above water will catch up sooner or later.

Piling on and saying "I told you so" doesn't do anyone any good at this point unless you just want to see them go under. Let's not go down the path of eating our own. We have enough museums with serious problems right now. I don't want to have to add WMSR to that list.
Kevin


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 Post subject: Re: That Other Articulated - WMSR #1309 - Update photos 04/2
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:38 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm
Posts: 377
But what are we supposed to do? I certainly don’t want to give them money and reward their behavior. In my mind the best thing that could happen is they sell to another owner.

Of course if/when they get the 1309 running I’ll be buying tickets.... I made a special trip to ride 734 “one last time” such a great railroad.


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 Post subject: Re: That Other Articulated - WMSR #1309 - Update photos 04/2
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:13 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:58 am
Posts: 51
So let's do some real rough back of a napkin level of calculations. I'm not trying to be perfect by any means, so you rivet counters are free to add to the festivities.

The WMSR web page says it's a 16 mile trip. Forgive me for assuming that's one way. So that's 84,480 feet. Wood ties are usually 18" apart - so that's 56,380 ties. Even if it's a 16 mile round trip, you will see my point

Assuming the top speed for their passenger trains is between 15 and 30 MPH that's Class 2 railroad. In VERY round numbers, every third tie has to be good for Class 2 railroad. Yea, I know it's not that simple, so flame away.

The bottom line is requiring only 1,200 ties out of 56,380 ties to meet class standards is not bad. Certainly not the "negligent" standard that I think was implied here.

Brian


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 Post subject: Re: That Other Articulated - WMSR #1309 - Update photos 04/2
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:55 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm
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We could nitpick the math (19.5 inch center rather than 18 for example) but the basic fact remains, that’s less than 100 per mile. That’s not bad at all!


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 Post subject: Re: That Other Articulated - WMSR #1309 - Update photos 04/2
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:35 am 

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:04 pm
Posts: 97
What a mess. This fiasco is why you write up contracts with the contractor detailing when work should be finished or pay a penalty. If it is not finished by a set date then the contractor should be fined, or lose the contract, or pay someone else to finish it. If the contractor is incompetent (which sounds like he is) I would take him to court to re-coup the costs of overuns along with the lost revenue of the railroad. Sounds like the contractor is milking this cash cow for every thing he can get out of it.

The manager of that railroad should resign. It was bad enough you missed the first roll out date by a mile. Now you are missing the second one. Seriously is this guy even communicating with the mechanics? You also just figured out that some tie replacement is necessary before running this extremely heavy locomotive? Good grief. What did you mange before this a Burger king?


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 Post subject: Re: That Other Articulated - WMSR #1309 - Update photos 04/2
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:16 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:58 am
Posts: 51
Tom F wrote:
You also just figured out that some tie replacement is necessary before running this extremely heavy locomotive? Good grief. What did you mange before this a Burger king?


Believe it or not, the FRA Class Standard for how many good ties you need is not directly related to the weight of the train traffic.

Speaking as some one who actually pulled bad ties out of a track without replacing them so the track would meet class standards and stay in service.

Brian


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 Post subject: Re: That Other Articulated - WMSR #1309 - Update photos 04/2
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:48 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 10:28 pm
Posts: 230
choodude wrote:
Tom F wrote:
You also just figured out that some tie replacement is necessary before running this extremely heavy locomotive? Good grief. What did you mange before this a Burger king?


Believe it or not, the FRA Class Standard for how many good ties you need is not directly related to the weight of the train traffic.


Also, that "extremely heavy engine" was built for light branchline coal mine service. Heavy? Yes, but it's spread out over a bunch more wheels, so the axle loading decreases considerably. I doubt the track would know the difference between it and 734.


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 Post subject: Re: That Other Articulated - WMSR #1309 - Update photos 04/2
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:07 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:19 pm
Posts: 1803
Location: Pottstown,Pa.
I must say that part of me feels sorry for John Garner but another part of me wonders how thick a skull does he have. We all know the definition of insanity.

Why on earth does he keep repeating the same painful mistake of advertising date commitments without being able to know when the machine will be A. finished and B. gone through the break-in debugging process that could be quite lengthy. Insanity indeed.

How he hasn't totally blown his management credibility with his funding agencies is a mystery for sure.

Maybe, just maybe he'll now STOP putting out dates UNTIL the locomotive is truly back in service???

Hope springs eternal. Ross Rowland


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 Post subject: Re: That Other Articulated - WMSR #1309 - Update photos 04/2
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:40 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:05 pm
Posts: 171
Quote:
Speaking as some one who actually pulled bad ties out of a track without replacing them so the track would meet class standards and stay in service.

WTF!!???!!???!!??? I've heard some lines before, but this one belongs in the Hall of Fame over on the 21st Century steam comments thread.....

Please identify which outfit you work for so I know never to ride there, or send anyone I know there. Nothing personal, but I value my safety and that of others. I can only hope you were joking.

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 Post subject: Re: That Other Articulated - WMSR #1309 - Update photos 04/2
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:16 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
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Between two different sources (the article bigjim4life posted and one on Trains newswire) I believe it is the drivers that are at a shop in Ohio, and they found something with them. I might be remembering wrong but I think the drivers were completed several years ago by a reputable shop and then left out in the rain by the previous management.

No matter what, with them so close to the finish line I hope they are able to pull it off.


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 Post subject: Re: That Other Articulated - WMSR #1309 - Update photos 04/2
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:48 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm
Posts: 2594
choodude wrote:

Believe it or not, the FRA Class Standard for how many good ties you need is not directly related to the weight of the train traffic.

Speaking as some one who actually pulled bad ties out of a track without replacing them so the track would meet class standards and stay in service.

Brian


Remember, FRA track standards are condemnation standards, not design standards. Take class 1 for example. 5 good ties per 39 feet? That's just shy of one tie every eight feet. They're chosen so that when you can't even meet that, there's no question the track is not safe. You should maintain to a higher standard in the same way that you shouldn't run your auto tires down to whatever the legal minimum tread depth is.

That said, I agree that they're pretty lax in many areas. As I mentioned, I think the goal is to make it rather hard to argue that "No, it'll be fine..."


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 Post subject: Re: That Other Articulated - WMSR #1309 - Update photos 04/2
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:06 am 

Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:16 pm
Posts: 55
The depth and scope of mismanagement of the WMSR is a near tragedy. Embarking on a restoration project as ambitious as the 1309 rebuild. Changing management and firing basically the entire steam crew partway into the project. Losing thousands of dollars worth of critical parts due to employee theft. Leaving parts you’ve paid thousands of dollars to have precision machined sit outside, unprotected in the warm, humid West Virginia river valley climate. Selling off the only coach with an open window space for rail fans (Man O War combine). Repeatedly advertising a hard, set in stone in service date for the 1309, selling tickets then saying “Oh, sorry, we found another issue preventing operation.” Poor relations with Allegany County Maryland’s governing body. And on and on.

Now, add in the announcement regarding poor track conditions on top of the previous “curve leading to Frostburg is too tight” issue and the general public is beginning to wonder if the WMSR is just a bottomless pit of fiscal waste. Friends rode the WMSR dinner train recently. They told me the coaches weren’t very well maintained and the food served was not worth the money. Several hundred of their Facebook friends saw bad comments about the WMSR. Numerous Trip Advisor and Google reviews also pan the WMSR.
I truly hope all the pieces of the 1309 FINALLY make it together into a magnificent, reliable steam locomotive with a railroad on which it can successfully operate. I will be a rider when (if) this happens.


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 Post subject: Re: That Other Articulated - WMSR #1309 - Update photos 04/2
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:41 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 775
steamloco76 wrote:
Now, add in the announcement regarding poor track conditions on top of the previous “curve leading to Frostburg is too tight” issue and the general public is beginning to wonder if the WMSR is just a bottomless pit of fiscal waste.

What I read between the lines of the trackwork announcement is that Allegany County (which owns the track), Cumberland and Frostburg are saying "We'll help you across the finish line because we need you to succeed."


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