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 Post subject: Re: That Other Articulated - WMSR #1309 - Update photos 04/2
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:48 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:19 pm
Posts: 1834
Location: Pottstown,Pa.
The facts between the UP's situation and the WMSR's are in totally different universes.

The UP could and did commit to spend multi millions to the Big Boy's rebirth and yes they made the all important Golden Spike deadline by the skin of their teeth. Her initial runs were essentially break-in exercises with the 844 & the diesels doing 99% of the pulling. And that's fine as to 99.9% of the viewing public it was a grand success and that's what counts. I'm confident that over the next few months the UP steam crew will get the rest of the bugs out and the 4014 will become a fully capable machine.

The WMSR is an entirely different scenario. After repeated failed return to service dates and long waits for refunds to those who bought tickets for trips that never ran the railroad is doing the very same thing all over again. The very definition of insanity.

Is it possible that the 1309 can be all put together and be debugged and ready for reliable daily service by August 1st. NO. With a locomotive as complex as the 1309 you can figure on a break-in schedule of between 3-6 trips to wring all the bugs out and somewhere between 2-5 weeks to accomplish the work.

Could everything work perfectly on the first trip with zero bugs? Sure, same as a 100:1 horse winning the Kentucky Derby.

Sure wish they'd learn and stop sucking in unsuspecting folks who are buying an expensive product nowhere near ready for the market.

IMHO-Ross Rowland


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 Post subject: Re: That Other Articulated - WMSR #1309 - Update photos 04/2
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:10 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm
Posts: 450
That’s what always drives me crazy when I visit a railroad museum and they say “if you’ve got a spare Million we can fix that locomotive and run it” (I’ve heard it countless times in one form or another). Money has very little to do with it, it’s the knowledge and time commitment. Obviously UP Steam crew hadn’t planned on cutting it so close..... even with all the money you can ask for these things take time.

Places like IRM impress me, they went years without steam, no promises. If you asked them for a status it was “We hope to have steam in the next season or 2. Follow the steam crew blog to see how the status is” and the blog was regularly updated. No big secrets. No conspiracy theories. Just a bunch of guys restoring a steam locomotive and reporting the progress. They were breaking in the Shay in 2018, but didn’t announce it operating for the public until Memorial Day of 2019. See that’s an operation that knows what they are doing!


Last edited by Crescent-Zephyr on Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: That Other Articulated - WMSR #1309 - Update photos 04/2
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:11 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:07 pm
Posts: 549
Location: B'more Maryland
Everyone sure likes kicking someone when they're down!

C'mon guys. Unless you have some skin in their game, cut em some slack.


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 Post subject: Re: That Other Articulated - WMSR #1309 - Update photos 04/2
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:42 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 9:53 pm
Posts: 31
"Money has very little to do with it, " Are you kidding me? Ray Charles could see money has everything to do with it.


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 Post subject: Re: That Other Articulated - WMSR #1309 - Update photos 04/2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:31 am 

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:04 pm
Posts: 119
I have been around trains my entire life and this #1309 debacle is like watching a old Benny Hill re-run with Mr Bean as the mechanic. Last year the boiler didn't even make it to a test steam up until October, 2018. Yet they were selling tickets as early as 2017. How dense do you have to be to look at a steam locomotive in pieces, with a boiler that hasn't even had a test steam, and then to thick you are going to get it all back together and running in just a few months? From the recent photos I have seen it looks like they are a good 4 months or more before they even get it back together let alone run a excursion.

In regards to the tie replacement. I don't know how many of you have seen the #1309 in person. I saw it many years ago in Baltimore and it is a very large steam locomotive. You need some good ties along with some decent ballast or your going to roll a rail over. I can't even begin to imagine the bad press if they finally get this locomotive moving and on the first trip it derails with all the wheels on the ground.


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 Post subject: Re: That Other Articulated - WMSR #1309 - Update photos 04/2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:56 am 

Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:56 pm
Posts: 14
Ed Kapuscinski wrote:
Everyone sure likes kicking someone when they're down!

C'mon guys. Unless you have some skin in their game, cut em some slack.



Ain't that the truth! This thread exposes a number of users who clearly have zero comprehension on what it takes to run a railroad much less restore a scrap-worthy steam locomotive...but are somehow entitled to condemn WMSR's every action. This used to be a forum for railway preservation. Not a convention of sanctimonious blobs, bolstering their insecurities by kicking others when they're down.

WMSR is a for-profit entity and will be run as such. They will do what is needed to support the controlling interests up to and including disappointing egocentrics. If you don't like it, piss off.

Jeff


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 Post subject: Re: That Other Articulated - WMSR #1309 - Update photos 04/2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:41 am 

Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:35 pm
Posts: 1
Jeffrey Fefferlyn wrote:
Ed Kapuscinski wrote:
Everyone sure likes kicking someone when they're down!

C'mon guys. Unless you have some skin in their game, cut em some slack.



Ain't that the truth! This thread exposes a number of users who clearly have zero comprehension on what it takes to run a railroad much less restore a scrap-worthy steam locomotive...but are somehow entitled to condemn WMSR's every action. This used to be a forum for railway preservation. Not a convention of sanctimonious blobs, bolstering their insecurities by kicking others when they're down.

WMSR is a for-profit entity and will be run as such. They will do what is needed to support the controlling interests up to and including disappointing egocentrics. If you don't like it, piss off.

Jeff


Stick it up yer ashpan!


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 Post subject: Re: That Other Articulated - WMSR #1309 - Update photos 04/2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:07 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm
Posts: 450
“WMSR is a for-profit entity and will be run as such. They will do what is needed to support the controlling interests up to and including disappointing egocentrics. If you don't like it, piss off.“

Really hard to make a case that WMSR is making good business decisions...

Charging $10 extra to Ride in a RDC commuter coach and calling it 1st class? You walk into a first class car at Strasburg or Durango or Grand Canyon (for profit operations...) you’re immediately going to see what you paid for. Step into an RDC? Nope.


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 Post subject: Re: That Other Articulated - WMSR #1309 - Update photos 04/2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:54 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:57 am
Posts: 200
Crescent-Zephyr wrote:
Charging $10 extra to Ride in a RDC commuter coach and calling it 1st class? You walk into a first class car at Strasburg or Durango or Grand Canyon (for profit operations...) you’re immediately going to see what you paid for. Step into an RDC? Nope.


Funny enough, at Grand Canyon Railway, neutered RDCs are their coach class cars. Ex-Amtrak single level cars and the lower sections of the short dome cars are the first class. Quite the difference. But I suppose what defines first class is relative to your other seats.


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 Post subject: Re: That Other Articulated - WMSR #1309 - Update photos 04/2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:57 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:19 pm
Posts: 1834
Location: Pottstown,Pa.
The real mystery here is how the current " management" has any credibility left with the state, county and other funding agencies after so many broken promises.

Unless there's a completely separated trust account created to insure that monies raised are spent ONLY on the 1309 ( and that account is run by a trusted steam restoration person with a successful track record, not the current mgt.) I don't think any substantial private sector funding is possible.

IMHO-Ross Rowland


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 Post subject: Re: That Other Articulated - WMSR #1309 - Update photos 04/2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:34 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:33 am
Posts: 24
Crescent-Zephyr wrote:
Places like IRM impress me, they went years without steam, no promises. If you asked them for a status it was “We hope to have steam in the next season or 2. Follow the steam crew blog to see how the status is” and the blog was regularly updated. No big secrets. No conspiracy theories. Just a bunch of guys restoring a steam locomotive and reporting the progress. They were breaking in the Shay in 2018, but didn’t announce it operating for the public until Memorial Day of 2019. See that’s an operation that knows what they are doing!


As someone who leans more on the railfan side of things and just barely involved on the preservation side, it surprises me that so many railroads don't have a simple restoration blog with shop updates once or twice a month (if not at least one each quarter). Union Pacific's steam crew was very successful in using their online updates to keep fans informed of the progress of UP 844 and UP 4014 the last few years. One of the most impressive things I have ever seen online once was when the Talyllyn Railway in Wales posted a link to Facebook showing a copy of their internal Excel file 'motive power spreadsheet' and an explanation of why its entire steam power fleet was going to be down for a few weekends.

Nothing burns trust in the digital age like false promises (like 1309's constantly changing debut date) or complete silence. I am sure many of the railroads that have the most vocal contingent of local railfans complaining about the seeming lack of progress on their steam locomotives; are the same ones that have no online transparency and project updates. In total silence its a lot easier for speculation to take root. When a photo from the inside of an 'silent' steam shop "leaks" in the same way a movie set photo would; and is treated with the same hush-hush clandestine nature, then its perhaps a sign that railroad needs to be a bit more transparent about their progress. I know as a customer or visitor to local railroad museums I am far more willing to make the four hour long trip to the local railroad I feel has made the most progress with their steam engines and is the most transparent about their restoration progress, rather than the shorter two hour trip to the closer railroad that often feels overly secretive and quiet on their shop activities.


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 Post subject: Re: That Other Articulated - WMSR #1309 - Update photos 04/2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:55 pm 

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:04 pm
Posts: 119
Jeffrey Fefferlyn wrote:
Ed Kapuscinski wrote:
Everyone sure likes kicking someone when they're down!

C'mon guys. Unless you have some skin in their game, cut em some slack.



Ain't that the truth! This thread exposes a number of users who clearly have zero comprehension on what it takes to run a railroad much less restore a scrap-worthy steam locomotive...but are somehow entitled to condemn WMSR's every action. This used to be a forum for railway preservation. Not a convention of sanctimonious blobs, bolstering their insecurities by kicking others when they're down.

WMSR is a for-profit entity and will be run as such. They will do what is needed to support the controlling interests up to and including disappointing egocentrics. If you don't like it, piss off.

Jeff


Jeff regardless if we are talking about a steam locomotive excursion or a tour on a cruise ship we expect the people who are taking our money to live up to their promise. I would bet the majority of the people who bought tickets for the first and second excursions lived out of State myself included. It takes a significant amount of time and money to plan these things. Hotels, rental cars, airline tickets, time off of work, etc. People are not going to be happy when they have to cancel all those things. It's even more irritating if you didn't buy a ticket to another steam excursion to ride this one, and then once you cancel you find out the other excursion is sold out.

People on this forum are upset because this type of unacceptable behavior makes the entire industry look bad. This endless money pit which the city has dumped mountains of cash into, is exactly why tourist railroads get a boot from the city and their rails turned into a bike trail. I am sure there is dozens of grants sitting on the table in cities all over America in regards to future steam locomotive restorations. They are going to read about the Western Maryland and reject every one of them.

Had this guy had any sense at all, he would ask both former and current steam locomotive experts their opinion on how much longer it should take to get this running again along with costs even if it was on a Facebook post. I would also agree with another poster that in this digital age it is unacceptable not to be posting updates. You have a website and you have Facebook. It's not going to kill you to spend 5 minutes talking about what is going on once a month. This should even be more so if you are using public money for a project.


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 Post subject: Re: That Other Articulated - WMSR #1309 - Update photos 04/2
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:39 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:05 am
Posts: 103
Sure they were wrong selling tickets. I just can not understand buying tickets before hand for something that we as folks who have been around for a few years new from the beginning that it was not going to happen. I do not understand way anyone would buy tickets before there was smoke from the stack and the wheels were turning.
Has anyone ever restored anything sometimes the paint drys in an hour and other times it takes days.
Al


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 Post subject: Re: That Other Articulated - WMSR #1309 - Update photos 04/2
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:35 am 

Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 10:30 pm
Posts: 719
Location: Bucks County, PA
alzubal wrote:
Sure they were wrong selling tickets. I just can not understand buying tickets before hand for something that we as folks who have been around for a few years new from the beginning that it was not going to happen. I do not understand way anyone would buy tickets before there was smoke from the stack and the wheels were turning.
Has anyone ever restored anything sometimes the paint drys in an hour and other times it takes days.
Al


Simple. The first time around, people did not want to miss out on the event, it was somewhat affordably priced, and at that point, there was no reason not to trust WMSR, saying that they'd have the locomotive ready.

Nowadays, after the the PR disaster that's gone on with the locomotive/railroad - people should know better.

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 Post subject: Re: That Other Articulated - WMSR #1309 - Update photos 04/2
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:15 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 9254
Location: Somewhere north of Prescott, AZ on the Santa Fe "Peavine"
Tom F wrote:
I would also agree with another poster that in this digital age it is unacceptable not to be posting updates. You have a website and you have Facebook. It's not going to kill you to spend 5 minutes talking about what is going on once a month. This should even be more so if you are using public money for a project.


Not to be snide about it, but, YES, it CAN. Especially if you're stupid enough to say the wrong things in this day/age (like something "politically incorrect"). Many careers have been (semi?)permanently ended by just ONE inappropriate comment, jest, etc. (ask Roseanne Barr).

When you are vastly in the public eye, with a kazillion potential critics and "Monday morning quarterbacks" looming out of sight, it behooves ANY organization to carefully take its time composing such updates--often by committee. And you need someone with a better-than-average command of the English language and experience in public communications. I shudder when I see (as I too often do) posts made to FB pages by business owners or members that either look like they have a fourth-grade command of English at best, write posts as if they're on Twitter, or are tone-deaf to how unprofessional or lackadaisical some of their communications sound.

I update Facebook pages for a couple organizations to which I belong. A random photo with a random caption I can crank out in 2-3 minutes. If I'm composing a thorough and professional update on the likes of a new or in-progress project, or a recap of an event, it typically takes me 30-45 minutes. If I want to post a historical or significant photo with all the background as to why it's significant, it averages me a half-hour of research to be accurate and thorough. I've gotten bogged down for two hours doing one Facebook post, between cross-checking info, confirming updates, and the like.

You know those "updates from the Strasburg Shops" you see here now and then? I can guarantee you that they don't take "five minutes." Taking photos, uploading them here, writing up the updates, etc. I've spoken with other shop administrators about posting such updates, and their universal response is "where the %$(*&#@ does he find the TIME?!?" And Brother Anderson is, fortunately, very articulate and well-spoken.

(Oh, that reminds me, I have to go and hunt down a better picture for this one post than the one FB auto-generated.... excuse me........)


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