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 Post subject: Re: AC&Y #505 for sale again
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2019 8:22 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 9262
Location: Somewhere north of Prescott, AZ on the Santa Fe "Peavine"
With regards to a flooded RDC, one needs to remember that an RDC has a hydraulic-mechanical drive, not electric motors. So, although the flooding does indeed have to be contended with, the potential damage is nowhere near as catastrophic as it is for a diesel-electric.


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 Post subject: Re: AC&Y #505 for sale again
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2019 9:19 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 860
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
With regards to a flooded RDC, one needs to remember that an RDC has a hydraulic-mechanical drive, not electric motors. So, although the flooding does indeed have to be contended with, the potential damage is nowhere near as catastrophic as it is for a diesel-electric.

The RDC group have given up on restoring the engines, but I think that would be true whether it was submerged in fresh water or salt water. Same with the traction motors on AC&Y 505 I think. But this is the last locomotive still in existence bought new by the AC&Y.

As an aside, when I was a student in Denver working as a truck driver I delivered to a GE facility where they rebuild traction motors, in an industrial area in Commerce City north of I-70. While I was waiting to unload something in boxes on a skid I asked about what they were rebuilding, there were maybe two dozen traction motors I could see, the GEs have a larger circumference than the EMDs which they were also rebuilding, and then there were a couple of unusual traction motors I had never seen before, turns out they were Westinghouse traction motors.


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 Post subject: Re: AC&Y #505 for sale again
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2019 9:55 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 12:24 am
Posts: 289
Location: H2O-town, CT
It's the type of flood that I have issue with and why I feel it's a lost cause.

If 505 was in fresh water I'd fully support and like seeing it saved somewhere, as either static or an eventual possible return to operation. A good cleaning and clean up of most of the smaller components and swapping out traction motors for replacements. Take apart electrical connections, clean and reassemble and see how they OHM out. It's got a good chance to survive with some work.

Being salt and brine flooded is a complete different animal. The corrosion will be more severe and keep going every time it gets damp or wet again. Components and wiring are trash. Salt also will break down oils and lubricants more so bearings, shafts and like will see more damage. This is besides all the steel parts that will keep corroding. This isn't a simple clean up of smaller components either, replace everything instead.

If you want to try a simple science experiment to see the difference get two jars and fill one with plain tap water, the second with the same tap water but add a bit of salt. Strip two identical lengths of the same gauge copper wire on both ends and hang both into the jars. Watch the opposite end after a few days. The salt one will be corroded on the opposite end while the plain water won't be. Why? Because, while salt is corrosive it's also a "wetter", it allows the water to flow more freely and will allow the water to wick further than the level that an object is submerged. Hence far more corrosion than you'd think or have to deal with than on a fresh water submerge.

Going back to what I mentioned about motor vehicles being flooded, there's a massive difference there. Fresh water you'd have the interior damaged and glues letting go plus the musty odor and mold but for parts the body panels, wheels and some components good, even an engine if it wasn't running when submerged and had the plugs pulled and cranked over after it was pulled out. With salt water the body panels are normally corroded, even aluminum rims. On a salt water flooded vehicle there's VERY little reusable after clean up, basically the glass and plastic trim panels.


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 Post subject: Re: AC&Y #505 for sale again
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2019 10:36 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 860
Perhaps one should consult with New Jersey Transit to find out their secret then, NJT restored to operation nine dual-powered ALP-45DPs and 84 multi-level rail cars swamped in salt water at Kearny NJ by the storm surge during Hurricane Sandy in 2012. They obviously decided it wasn't a lost cause.

I really don't understand the animosity toward the restoration of AC&Y 505, if someone wants to restore it that is their business.

Photo by Richard Crerand, 2014, caption: "ALP-45DP 4500, the class leader, is on the point of Train 1055. This was actually the first revenue run of this unit since being damaged by Hurricane Sandy back in 2012." http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... id=3833590

Edit: if you look at this cost sheet for the damage "NEW JERSEY TRANSIT SUM OF SUPER STORM SANDY PAYMENTS AS OF SEPT 30, 2017" on page 191 you will see that they paid Siemens between $11k and $30k for traction motor repairs. http://njtransitresilienceprogram.com/w ... OR_RPT.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: AC&Y #505 for sale again
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 12:53 am 

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:34 pm
Posts: 270
PMC wrote:
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
With regards to a flooded RDC, one needs to remember that an RDC has a hydraulic-mechanical drive, not electric motors. So, although the flooding does indeed have to be contended with, the potential damage is nowhere near as catastrophic as it is for a diesel-electric.

The RDC group have given up on restoring the engines, but I think that would be true whether it was submerged in fresh water or salt water. Same with the traction motors on AC&Y 505 I think. But this is the last locomotive still in existence bought new by the AC&Y.

As an aside, when I was a student in Denver working as a truck driver I delivered to a GE facility where they rebuild traction motors, in an industrial area in Commerce City north of I-70. While I was waiting to unload something in boxes on a skid I asked about what they were rebuilding, there were maybe two dozen traction motors I could see, the GEs have a larger circumference than the EMDs which they were also rebuilding, and then there were a couple of unusual traction motors I had never seen before, turns out they were Westinghouse traction motors.

#505 is equipped with four Westinghouse 370s, spares are hard to come by these days. Galveston did an assessment after the last storm, I was told the TMs were salvageable but the bearings definitely needed replacement. The prime mover is in good shape, the wiring likely needs refurbishment. The wood floor in the cab is rotted and needs full replacement. #505 requires serious work but she isn't far gone. I just wish funding wasn't so much of a challenge. In the last campaign I received only over a few hundred dollars. When Galveston originally reconsidered the sale donations were returned.


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 Post subject: Re: AC&Y #505 for sale again
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 1:35 am 

Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:22 pm
Posts: 258
PMC wrote:
Perhaps one should consult with New Jersey Transit to find out their secret then, NJT restored to operation nine dual-powered ALP-45DPs and 84 multi-level rail cars swamped in salt water at Kearny NJ by the storm surge during Hurricane Sandy in 2012. They obviously decided it wasn't a lost cause.

I really don't understand the animosity toward the restoration of AC&Y 505, if someone wants to restore it that is their business.


The difference is remediation, the NJ stuff was immediately remediated and the Galveston stuff has been sitting rotting for over a decade since Ike and didn't have preventative maintenance before.
I sincerely hope they get the 505 out, and restored, but don't see it happening.

CD


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 Post subject: Re: AC&Y #505 for sale again
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 1:36 am 

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:04 pm
Posts: 122
MEC_557 wrote:
If you read SP 10's FB page you'll see the bad, the real bad. Like the non stainless parts rotting like the cut lever bracket that's crumbling with little left to the body, and the lower body seam that's letting go …… from the backside. They are optimistic but they have a LONG uphill battle to save that RDC.

Salt and brine gets into the pores of the metal. Sandblasting and prep only cleans the surface. That metal will be popping and flaking for years to come even under fresh paint as the salt leaches out over time. They even admit mechanically it's done for, components need replacing to consider operational in the future. Even static for now is a big job. Currently they're working on the mold growing in the car.


You are over blowing this saltwater issue. It's not as extreme as you make it to be. Saltwater has to get to bare metal fist. Rust is a extremely slow process. It doesn't just magically penetrate through paint, rubber, plastic, aluminum, etc. Even if it does you can simply sand the rust off and paint over it. If the metal is shot because of rust you replace it. I have yet to see a locomotive turn into a pile of rust dust.

Sandblasting most defiantly removes rust to bright bare metal. If you had any experience with industrial sandblasting you would know it physically removes metal like sandpaper. Hold the nozzle in the same place long enough and you will blow a hole though the metal. No it won't bubble later because 1). you physically removed it, 2.) rust needs oxygen and water for a chemical reaction. That chemical reaction stops when you paint over it. Mill a rusty piece of thick metal and it will look brand new after milling.

If you really want to see some extreme examples of locomotive corrosion visit the Snoqualmie railroad museum. They have locomotives that have been sitting outdoors in the 290 days of Washington rain for over 50 years. I have seen small trees growing out of the sand domes. Yet one locomotive was recently restored for the Black hills railroad. They are almost finished with another.


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 Post subject: Re: AC&Y #505 for sale again
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2019 9:13 am 

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:58 pm
Posts: 1270
Location: Chicago USA
Strip it down to frame & body and submerse it in a fresh water pond for a month. Then give it a good pressure wash.


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 Post subject: Re: AC&Y #505 for sale again
PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:19 am 

Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:19 pm
Posts: 86
My suggestion for preserving AC&Y 505 involves a collaboration that would bring AC&Y 505 to the Mad River & Nickel Plate Railroad Museum in Bellevue, Ohio and their Milwaukee Road 740 H-12-44 to the Illinois Railway Museum. This would bring AC&Y 505 home to Ohio, and interpret the partnership between the NKP and AC&Y in exchanging traffic as part of the Alphabet Route from Chicago to East Coast ports. It would also offer an opportunity for a head-to-head comparison between Alco, EMD, and FM road switchers from the mid-1950s, which can only be done at a few museums in North America. The Mad River & Nickel Plate Railroad Museum is a non-operating museum, which should allay the questions about whether or not the unit can be restored to service.

Milwaukee Road 740 has been cosmetically restored and maintained in excellent condition by the Mad River & Nickel Plate Railroad Museum, even though the Milwaukee Road never operated in Ohio. Bringing it to the Illinois Railway Museum would allow for a comparison between FM’s “early” switcher design by Raymond Lowey exemplified by Milwaukee Road 760 H-10-44 (the first locomotive built by FM) and the 740, which was built near the end of FM switcher production. Restoring 740 to operation would create an opportunity for MU operation, which would make IRM the only place in the world where such an event would be possible.

I think there is a possibility for a real win-win here, but such a transaction would also be complicated.

Here is a list of items that would have to be accomplished in order for this to happen:

A decision on the part of the Mad River & Nickel Plate Railroad Museum to acquire AC&Y 505 and part with Milwaukee Road 740.

A decision by the Illinois Railway Museum to acquire Milwaukee Road 740.

I would expect the Boards of Directors would predicate that the acquisitions would come at no cost to their respective museums (meaning that all costs would have to be borne by new fund raising).

Developing a cost estimate that would be used to set a fund raising target. This cost estimate would include the following:

• Acquisition of AC&Y 505
• Acquisition of Milwaukee Road 740
• Flat car movement of both locomotives
• Crane loading of AC&Y 505 at Galveston
• Crane unloading of AC&Y 505 at Bellevue and crane loading of Milwaukee Road 740
• Track space fees at the Illinois Railway Museum

Is there enough interest among fans of the Milwaukee Road and the Akron Canton & Youngstown to make it worthwhile for the Illinois Railway Museum and the Mad River & Nickel Plate Railroad Museum to consider this venture? The costs identified above are not small by any measure.


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 Post subject: Re: AC&Y #505 for sale again
PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:02 am 

Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:45 am
Posts: 503
Location: Illinois
Thomas Cornillie wrote:
Bringing it to the Illinois Railway Museum would allow for a comparison between FM’s “early” switcher design by Raymond Lowey exemplified by Milwaukee Road 760 H-10-44 (the first locomotive built by FM) and the 740, which was built near the end of FM switcher production. Restoring 740 to operation would create an opportunity for MU operation, which would make IRM the only place in the world where such an event would be possible.


Throwing a monkey wrench into the works here, but, unless the Milwaukee Rd retrofitted 740 with an electric throttle and MU, as they did with 760, MU operation simply would not be possible.

Looking at online photos, I see no evidence of 27 pin MU sockets on 740.

Jeff

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 Post subject: Re: AC&Y #505 for sale again
PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:20 am 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 4:02 pm
Posts: 1186
Location: Back in NE Ohio
I question whether or not Mad River's 740 has any "guts" in it at all? I thought it was just a shell. Which is fine for display.


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 Post subject: Re: AC&Y #505 for sale again
PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:41 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2454
Location: Northern Illinois
PaulWWoodring wrote:
I question whether or not Mad River's 740 has any "guts" in it at all? I thought it was just a shell. Which is fine for display.


Only if you are a museum of industrial design. If you are a technology museum, it's rather pointless to have an artifact that lacks the technology.

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 Post subject: Re: AC&Y #505 for sale again
PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:28 am 

Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:19 pm
Posts: 86
It was my understanding that MILW 740 had at least its prime mover and most of its electrical cabinet. I would be happy to be corrected here.

Jeff, from looking at additional in-service photos I think you are right about the lack of MU on MILW 740. The vagarities of late Milwaukee Road rebuilding programs are not to be underestimated. One would think that a newer and higher-horsepower unit would have been a higher priority for receiving MU.

Having 740 and 760 working side-by-side, even if the can't MU, would still be desirable.


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