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 Post subject: Re: O/T--Who Will Keep the Warbirds Flying?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:06 pm 

Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 5:19 pm
Posts: 451
Location: Bowie, MD
State of the art multiplayer computer games, now based on real data scanned from actual plane/tank hardware, using actual sounds, collected and built by world traveling historians hired by the gaming companies, backed stopped by Youtube videos that sometimes immerse into every possible gory detail (both tanks and planes) can lead players, who may include well paid coders and project managers, to seek out and touch the actual hardware.

This has become a major industry, now attracting New York advertising dollars with some channel viewer ship numbers approaching TV and cable channel levels. There are hundreds of millions of dollars engaged in the gaming industry. Perhaps billions.

Similar railroad games I've experienced with don't even come close.

I suspect the warbird aviation community (and the WWII era tank community) has a bright future even though the cost of filling a B-29 with gas can approach steam locomotive restoration to operation levels.

Bob

Not WWII related, but a technology demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_FCuMAl8oA


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 Post subject: Re: O/T--Who Will Keep the Warbirds Flying?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:52 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
Posts: 614
Alan Walker wrote:
Aviation museums don't need their airplanes to function to draw the interest of the public, so a comparison of operating hours is really an apples to oranges comparison.

Compare the visitation numbers for a museum with static planes to the attendance numbers at airshows and you'll see that having functioning airplanes really does matter.


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 Post subject: Re: O/T--Who Will Keep the Warbirds Flying?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:59 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 3:04 pm
Posts: 116
Location: San Jose, CA
bbunge wrote:

Similar railroad games I've experienced with don't even come close.



Not surprising...how much excitement can a gamer receive when he/she is stuck to a pair of rails? What variables/wild cards can a railroad theme game provide?

My 19 year old son would be bored within a few minutes.


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 Post subject: Re: O/T--Who Will Keep the Warbirds Flying?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:29 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:58 pm
Posts: 109
bbunge
Bob.
Astute observations.
Watched B29 "FiFi" flying at Hamilton Ontario. Arrived a thousand miles from its home base.
As you say, the fuel bill is eye-watering. But it is operated as a well organized commercial enterprise, with sponsors, ticket sales for a short flight, and the souvenir shop.
It generates a lot of interest and revenue at airshows.

Very much harder to do with rail operations. Fixed in one place, marketing to the same pool of prospective visitors. Requires a very focused marketing group. IMPO.

Dennis.


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 Post subject: Re: O/T--Who Will Keep the Warbirds Flying?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:21 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:54 am
Posts: 932
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Actually, fuel is only one part of the equation. In some cases, it's not a factor as an FBO can write off the fuel as a tax deductible donation if the receiver is a tax exempt non profit.

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 Post subject: Re: O/T--Who Will Keep the Warbirds Flying?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:33 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:54 am
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Location: Tucson, Arizona
Chris Webster wrote:
Alan Walker wrote:
Aviation museums don't need their airplanes to function to draw the interest of the public, so a comparison of operating hours is really an apples to oranges comparison.

Compare the visitation numbers for a museum with static planes to the attendance numbers at airshows and you'll see that having functioning airplanes really does matter.


Not exactly true either. Size and scope of the museum's collection is a major influencer. My local aviation museum, the Pima Air and Space Museum, receives over 170,000 visitors annually. Then again, they are to aviation history what the California State Railroad Museum is to railroad history. I should note that Pima has no operational aircraft and no visitor accessibility to the restoration shops. Then again, they have JFK's VC-118, Freedom One (the VC-137 that returned the Iran hostages home under Reagan), an SR-71 and an intact Titan II ICBM launch facility.

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 Post subject: Re: O/T--Who Will Keep the Warbirds Flying?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:42 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:54 am
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Location: Tucson, Arizona
Old Smokey wrote:
.

Very much harder to do with rail operations. Fixed in one place, marketing to the same pool of prospective visitors. Requires a very focused marketing group. IMPO.

Dennis.



Much harder to do so in the United States-not the UK. In the UK, most operating steam locomotives are free to wander about the country since the railway is a open user system. Anyone who meets the standards to operate on the national network can go wherever they want as long as their movement can be fit in. Therefore, locomotives can move from one heritage railway to another at will. You can also have all operating locomotives of a certain class appear at special events. Therefore, they can draw repeatedly from the same pool of prospective visitors for different events very easily.

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 Post subject: Re: O/T--Who Will Keep the Warbirds Flying?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:14 pm 

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:28 am
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Location: Ipswich, UK
Alan Walker wrote:

Much harder to do so in the United States-not the UK. In the UK, most operating steam locomotives are free to wander about the country since the railway is a open user system. Anyone who meets the standards to operate on the national network can go wherever they want as long as their movement can be fit in. Therefore, locomotives can move from one heritage railway to another at will. You can also have all operating locomotives of a certain class appear at special events. Therefore, they can draw repeatedly from the same pool of prospective visitors for different events very easily.


Not quite as simple as that, I'm afraid.
For locos/stock to be moved or operate on the National network, they have to be certified as such, with ultrasound tests on axles etc, even if they are not operating under their own power.
If they are not certified, then they have to be moved by road between sites, but, having said that, there are specialist trucking firms that move stock between lines on a regular basis. Railways also collaborate on co-ordinating moves, which minimises unloaded trailer moves around the country and therby reduce transportation costs accordingly by eliminating "dead" mileage.
The same trucking firms also move stock around by road for the Main rail operating companies as well, so they are a significant player in the UK rail scene beyond just the preservation side of things.

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 Post subject: Re: O/T--Who Will Keep the Warbirds Flying?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:25 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:54 am
Posts: 932
Location: Tucson, Arizona
70000 wrote:
Alan Walker wrote:

Much harder to do so in the United States-not the UK. In the UK, most operating steam locomotives are free to wander about the country since the railway is a open user system. Anyone who meets the standards to operate on the national network can go wherever they want as long as their movement can be fit in. Therefore, locomotives can move from one heritage railway to another at will. You can also have all operating locomotives of a certain class appear at special events. Therefore, they can draw repeatedly from the same pool of prospective visitors for different events very easily.


Not quite as simple as that, I'm afraid.
For locos/stock to be moved or operate on the National network, they have to be certified as such, with ultrasound tests on axles etc, even if they are not operating under their own power.
If they are not certified, then they have to be moved by road between sites, but, having said that, there are specialist trucking firms that move stock between lines on a regular basis. Railways also collaborate on co-ordinating moves, which minimises unloaded trailer moves around the country and therby reduce transportation costs accordingly by eliminating "dead" mileage.
The same trucking firms also move stock around by road for the Main rail operating companies as well, so they are a significant player in the UK rail scene beyond just the preservation side of things.



Thanks for the more specific information. Still a lot easier than moving stock around on this side of the ocean for most folks. At least you all know that if you want to go through the work of getting certified, you'll have access to the network. Here, it's up to the individual railroads and the powers that be. You guys also have an advantage that all of your heritage lines are within a reasonable driving distance as compared to ours.

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 Post subject: Re: O/T--Who Will Keep the Warbirds Flying?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:16 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
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Location: southeastern USA
And you don't even have to drive to get to most of them. Even the 2 foot gauge Ffestiniog interchanges cross platform with mainline passenger service.

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Corollary: "He who does is doomed to watch those who don't repeat it anyway."


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 Post subject: Re: O/T--Who Will Keep the Warbirds Flying?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:36 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:54 am
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Location: Tucson, Arizona
Dave wrote:
And you don't even have to drive to get to most of them. Even the 2 foot gauge Ffestiniog interchanges cross platform with mainline passenger service.


True. That and they also have a fair number of mainline trips offered. Even TFL permits heritage ops with occasional Steam on the Met trips.

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 Post subject: Re: O/T--Who Will Keep the Warbirds Flying?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:44 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:09 pm
Posts: 408
Ed Kapuscinski wrote:
But I think the #1 issue facing railroad preservation today is that groups are not getting where the action is when it comes to recruiting a new generation. Nobody wants to hang around with unpleasant cranky old men. If your group seems like a bunch of said cranky old men then younger people will simply go find other people to associate with. You've got to be welcoming, open minded, and maybe leave that MAGA or Bernie hat at home.


This times 1000.

It is AMAZING how many groups are still populated with countless old men, that have nothing good to contribute.

I wont mention a name - but when you show up a semi-well known museum in the Midwest, and the very first things you are told BEFORE even joining up is how poor the management is, how this guy does this that and the other thing, wont listen to anyone else... And yet, these are the people that get elected over and over because certain people are afraid of retaliation.

What kind of taste does that leave?

I have said it before, and I will say it again. PLENTY of younger guys into the stuff, but nobody has the time to, or care, to deal with the club hierarchy BS.

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 Post subject: Re: O/T--Who Will Keep the Warbirds Flying?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:17 pm 

Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:05 pm
Posts: 40
Quote:
I have said it before, and I will say it again. PLENTY of younger guys into the stuff, but nobody has the time to, or care, to deal with the club hierarchy BS


Putting up with this crap non-stop through my late teens to early 20's is why I won't touch volunteering with a ten foot pole anymore.

Now here I am, an able bodied 30 year old man with a full electrical and mechanical background and a salaried job that gives me a ton a free time with two museums only an hour away from me - and I won't give them the time of day.

I did go by one on a day I was down the street from it on a job and asked about working on train crew (i.e. engineer). Got told I could be a car host for two years and then they might thing about it. I turned around and NOPED the hell straight out the door.

Kicker is the area I live in now seems to have a fairly large younger railfan demographic. You'll see groups of kids with 5-6 members running around photographing the mainlines and none of them have any interest in volunteering either.

Museums seem to refuse to understand that unless you're paying the next generation an hourly wage to be there, you have no right to treat them like crap.


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 Post subject: Re: O/T--Who Will Keep the Warbirds Flying?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:35 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:21 pm
Posts: 401
Location: Danbury, CT
parktrains wrote:
I did go by one on a day I was down the street from it on a job and asked about working on train crew (i.e. engineer). Got told I could be a car host for two years and then they might thing about it. I turned around and NOPED the hell straight out the door.



Is this the only reason you walked away? Your expectations may be unrealistic if you’re expecting to walk onto an organization’s property and immediately hop into the engineer’s seat. Two years of car hosting may not sound like fun, but it would potentially provide both time to become familiar with the operation and valuable experience in dealing with customers. This period can also give you a chance to build a relationship with the membership while allowing both you and the organization to determine whether or not it’s a good fit. Call it a trial period, evaluation period, etc.

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Last edited by Mount Royal on Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: O/T--Who Will Keep the Warbirds Flying?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:44 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm
Posts: 474
If you think you’re too good to be a car host, you’re probably not the definition of a good volunteer.


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