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 Post subject: It can't be done... Oh, never mind, we just did it.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:18 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm
Posts: 2874
Now that much of the 4014 hoopla has died down a bit, I'm wondering about what changed to make this possible?

For years, any time anyone mentioned restoring a UP Big Boy (and that was quite often), they were presented with a long list of why it simply wasn't possible. Not only from railfans, but also from the industry in general. I run a railroad forum, and once get a note from somebody who was most definitely in a position to know, probably better than anyone else, about how funny a post saying how they should restore one was. The implication was that it was about as likely as a moon launch.

Now, the first and most obvious problem was money. Well, what happened there was they're the Union Pacific and "We can handle it!" applies. What is unfathomable for a typical railroad museum is just another line item in a huge corporate budget.

However, there were many other factors mentioned. Tracks are no longer gauged for steam, widened in curves etc. Clearances were also question, recalling the Challenger running into (literally) some problems back east.

For as long as I can recall, the verdict, from fan and pro alike, was it was simply impossible. Too many problems to surmount.

Then, one day, UP says "OK, we're doing this" and they've done it. What changed? Were all the problems overblown? Yes, some were simply a matter of "throw money at the problem" but others were not.


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 Post subject: Re: It can't be done... Oh, never mind, we just did it.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:55 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
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Location: Inwood, W.Va.
For the 99% of us, this was impossible. We don't have the money, we don't have the big steam shop, we don't have a railroad that can handle such a machine.

What changed was enough of the people at the top of a railroad that had the money, the shop, and track to support the locomotive wanted to do it. How that came about, what the reasons were, we don't know and can only speculate about. About the only reason that we might know is those same people wanted to make a big splash for the Sesquicentennial of the Golden Spike ceremony. We also don't know how much opposition had to be overcome within the company.

I do think we can assume that there was and is an existing steam program made at least some things easier. The proponents didn't have to start from scratch.

The sad thing is, this shouldn't be so unique--nor so fragile. So many railroads have a history that is just as colorful, just as important, and just as worthy of celebration as that of the Union Pacific. And yet, as we know too well, an awful lot of people in senior management, for reasons justified and unjustified, are hostile to anything remotely like this.

(I can't help but think of how the restorations of 611 and 1218 came because Mr. Claytor became the head of Norfolk Southern. Would anybody else have gotten it through if he wasn't in the top chair? Could even Mr. Claytor have done it if he weren't in that top chair?)

You don't know how much I would like to see regular steam operations up the New River Gorge, connecting and serving the parks and towns and tourist attractions on that route, strung together like beads on two steel strings. . .but you know why we won't see it, or can't until some things change a bit further.


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 Post subject: Re: It can't be done... Oh, never mind, we just did it.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:00 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 4:00 am
Posts: 183
Location: Philadelphia, Pa.
Quote:
However, there were many other factors mentioned. Tracks are no longer gauged for steam, widened in curves etc. Clearances were also question, recalling the Challenger running into (literally) some problems back east.


Yet the 4014 derailed on it's first set of trips. It was minor but a disruption to operations nonetheless. Let's hope this doesn't become a common thing.


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 Post subject: Re: It can't be done... Oh, never mind, we just did it.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:10 pm 

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:08 pm
Posts: 396
Location: Amherst, OH
A minor derailment while moving through the yard. I find it interesting that when other steam locomotives derail it's still news but nobody says the sky is falling.


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 Post subject: Re: It can't be done... Oh, never mind, we just did it.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:11 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm
Posts: 1474
Having just seen and ridden behind the Big Boy I too was thinking how many times I’ve heard “it’ll never happen” “it doesn’t make any financial sense” “too much money” too much work” etc. etc.

Humans need to stop listening to people like that who are just negative and jealous people. The same things could have been said about landing on the moon, building the transon., air travel etc.

Look at the Virginia & Truckee rebuilding the line in Nevada, the WW&F in Maine, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: It can't be done... Oh, never mind, we just did it.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:45 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:27 am
Posts: 569
Location: Winters, TX
I think timing had a lot to do with it. The Transcontinental Railroad's 150th anniversary provided the incentive for the UP to do something big. Do you trot out the 844 and maybe the 3985 for a humdrum trip to Utah or do you do something spectacular? UP is known for doing spectacular things.

My only question is why the 4014? Why drag a Big Boy clear across a sizeable fairgrounds and move it halfway across the country when there are so many others much closer, especially considering their plans to do a frame up restoration?


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 Post subject: Re: It can't be done... Oh, never mind, we just did it.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:00 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:30 am
Posts: 290
Part of it was the change of leadership with the steam crew. Steve Lee was convinced it was impossible and completely impractical.


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 Post subject: Re: It can't be done... Oh, never mind, we just did it.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:39 pm 
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Location: Pac NW, via North Florida
Modern locomotives and cars are way longer than they were when Steve Lee started saying, "Stop asking we'll never run a 4000," and I think once UP realized 844 can handle a given curve, a 4000 could as well as long as there were no clearance issues on curves.
That handled the size issue, but the effort/ability/money question was resolved once they first got the Challenger running. That proved the UP could handle the job of a running 4000 if they wanted to.
There are times I wonder if the suits in Omaha would come to work, having driven under the watchful stare of 4023 and say out loud, "We never should have agreed to put her up on that hill," as I understand that 4023 had just been outshopped at the end of steam and had been in a roundhouse for a while (along with 3985) before she was moved outside.
I've assumed that someone from the UP steam program either went up the hill to at least look her over or maybe had done so before the move?

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 Post subject: Re: It can't be done... Oh, never mind, we just did it.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:38 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:30 am
Posts: 290
Despite her late shopping and her extended stay under cover after retirement that left her in pristine shape in the mid 1970's, #4023 has had a rough time in preservation after leaving her home under cover. While spruced up today and not in as bad of a shape as some once thought, she's middle of the pack at best, condition-wise.

Unlike had she been rescued soon after the #3985 had been restored (That had sat outside on display for less than 5 years before the 3985 Committee led by John Boehner convinced UP to let them attempt a restoration in the late 70's), the #4023 has been sitting in the harsh Nebraska weather all this time.

With those ~45 years outside in Nebraska, I'm sure it made much more sense to get Pomona's example that had been well cared for and had been displayed in a far more mild climate.


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 Post subject: Re: It can't be done... Oh, never mind, we just did it.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:04 pm 

Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:37 am
Posts: 150
It's a bit hard to make a worthwhile comment from faraway Australia, but I will say that this event didn't go un-noticed over here and I believe quite a few Aussies went across for the event.
What I think it's fair to say, though, is that this effort would have given UP publicity it couldn't buy through conventional advertising.
Whether that publicity comes back in the shape of increased business I wouldn't have a clue, but good publicity is always good for business.
Cheers, Bob


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 Post subject: Re: It can't be done... Oh, never mind, we just did it.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:23 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 3:37 pm
Posts: 1275
Location: Pacific, MO
LeoA wrote:
Part of it was the change of leadership with the steam crew. Steve Lee was convinced it was impossible and completely impractical.

My understanding is that Steve talked to management about the 4023 before it was moved up the hill. Got turned down.
Correct me if I'm wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: It can't be done... Oh, never mind, we just did it.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:31 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:26 pm
Posts: 236
According to Jim Wrinn in the Trains special edition, "Big Boy Back In Steam," there was a donor that is well known in the railroad business with deep pockets that offered to pay for the restoration. That person has not been identified. The article does not say how much money, if any, that person donated to the cause. At least he gave the UP the idea.


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 Post subject: Re: It can't be done... Oh, never mind, we just did it.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:38 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:10 am
Posts: 2499
I had the great fortune to be in Ogden during the festivities and was able to follow #4014 east for a couple of days. The reason this all happened was apparent: the UP embraced its history like few other railroads ever had. It was masterful PR. All the reasons it couldn't happen that clogged railfan chat rooms faded because a) some the concern was overblown armchair railroading and b) the UP knew #4014 wouldn't be able to go anywhere. Careful planning was required. As a result, the railroad was able to have two steam locomotives pilot-to-pilot 150 years after the first time that happened in Utah. And one of them just happened to be the most legendary of all. #Done

The PR value has been tremendous. The news (national and local) coverage the UP has received adds up to much more value than the cost of restoration and operation.

Timing. Money. The right team. Sometimes this can't be planned. Mr. Dickens and his team treated #4014 with the same TLC that a car collector would give a '71 Super Bee. The reverence shown to the machine was a joy to watch.

The "impossible" was done. Now what's next? Let's get that PRR T1 out there. And then focus on the NYC J3? Nothing is really impossible anymore, is it?

Rob

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 Post subject: Re: It can't be done... Oh, never mind, we just did it.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:32 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:30 am
Posts: 290
Frisco1522 wrote:
LeoA wrote:
Part of it was the change of leadership with the steam crew. Steve Lee was convinced it was impossible and completely impractical.

My understanding is that Steve talked to management about the 4023 before it was moved up the hill. Got turned down.
Correct me if I'm wrong.


You could be right, but my hunch is that he probably didn't. He was always adamant that it wasn't a move he was interested in nor do I believe had he been that he'd of seriously considered a candidate that was known to have suffered greatly from the elements.

His plan of operations with the steam program was always to keep what they had in a state of good repair, run it safely, and make sure that when it does run that it's tied into a greater purpose than just to please railfans. He knew to protect the program and the treasures they were running that it had to remain relevant or risk going the way of the first Norfolk Southern steam program.

He never expressed interest in expanding it by taking on a 3rd even larger locomotive than the two they were already running, and routinely would scoff at the idea of restoring a Big Boy to steam.

But perhaps his views had softened a bit. I don't remember the state of the 3985 at this time, but this move was 2006 as I recall and they had just completed a major overhaul of the 844 a year earlier. So perhaps he was dreaming of attempting it now that the rebuild of the 844 was behind them.

Stationary Engineer wrote:
According to Jim Wrinn in the Trains special edition, "Big Boy Back In Steam," there was a donor that is well known in the railroad business with deep pockets that offered to pay for the restoration. That person has not been identified. The article does not say how much money, if any, that person donated to the cause. At least he gave the UP the idea.



I believe the deal didn't go through.

It was announced that they had a partner when the news hit, but it was later said that Union Pacific was going it alone.


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 Post subject: Re: It can't be done... Oh, never mind, we just did it.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:00 am 

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:04 pm
Posts: 314
There is little question that trains are more popular now than probably ever before. I think the majority of Americans enjoy trains and enjoy riding on trains. Another portion of Americans don't really care one way or another but when a steam locomotive comes to town they are probably going to go see it.

I have been riding these trains since I was around 4 years old. I remember one time chasing the SP&S 700 on the main line and I was the only person following it. Same with riding local excursion trains. I remember on several occasions the engineer telling me "we need at least 5 people to do a run". Now in the Summer time trains are constantly sold out. The main line excursions are and have been sold out, for years now despite tickets costing several hundred dollars. I heard there were lines as long as 4 miles chasing the Big Boy.

Just from a economic standpoint the Big Boy will sell out ever train it has from now until the end of the year and beyond. I am sure it will pay the down the restoration costs rather quickly. Some said the restoration costs upward of 10 million. What is 10 million to a company that made 7 billion last year? It's peanuts. They probably spend that much on coffee and paper towels.

Probably another big factor is the advancement of technology, more specifically CAD technology. Now more then ever before, anything can be made in a shop with a minimal amount of machinery, greatly reducing costs and time. Union Pacific took great advantage of this technology by making the majority of the parts themselves, using old blueprints.

So what changed....
The general public is interested in railroads now more then ever before.
Technology has made reproducing parts quicker and cheaper.
Excursion trains bring in revenue instead of losing revenue.
Track and infrastructure has been greatly improved.
The conversion from coal to oil played a significant factor.
Most reports of the Big Boys fuel and water consumption were overblown.
Probably the biggest factor is the Union Pacific steam team are a dedicated group of professionals, who have a excellent track record of delivering on their promise.

As far as what the future brings....
I expect the NYC Hudson will be built from scratch much like the Pennsylvania T1.
Norfolk and Western #1218 will undergo restoration and steam again.
Santa Fe #5000 will eventually be restored and steam again.


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