Railway Preservation News :: View topic - Steam trains could die out because of government crackdown..

I received my email blast from HRA today, and G. Mark Ray raises some of the same questions.

G. Mark Ray of HRA wrote:

I can offer this as an incentive, our friends in the UK are looking to ship 30,000 tons of coal per year from the USA to the UK annually. That’s a good start.

That's something. The UK was the coal supplier to the world for a hundred years or more. Now they are looking to import it.

Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:

I had also heard a rumor that part of the reason for the shutdown of the East Broad Top was that the mines that formerly supplied the line's coal had also been depleted or shut down.

I heard that too. As a tourist line, they continued to burn the remnants of their Broad Top coal, but it ran out a few years prior to their last run. You may have noticed that their engines were producing a lot more smoke those last few years, running on imported coal for the first time in their lives.

"That's something. The UK was the coal supplier to the world for a hundred years or more. Now they are looking to import it."

Heritage coal mines, anyone?

Bottom line is, government doesn't have to do anything to force us off coal. Market economics is doing that.

But there will always be a need for coal to make steel, correct? Even if all electric plants close, there will still be some coal use.

Author:	70000 [ Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Steam trains could die out because of government crackdo
Kelly Anderson wrote: I received my email blast from HRA today, and G. Mark Ray raises some of the same questions. G. Mark Ray of HRA wrote: I can offer this as an incentive, our friends in the UK are looking to ship 30,000 tons of coal per year from the USA to the UK annually. That’s a good start. That's something. The UK was the coal supplier to the world for a hundred years or more. Now they are looking to import it. That's interesting. Haven't seen anything about that over here yet, though the UK Heritage Railway Association were said to be "looking at a solution". The latest Railway Magazine that came out last week quotes a current UK preserved railway coal consumption figure of 26,000 Tons per Annum - which is 0.216% of the current UK coal use figure of 12 million tons p.a. Hopefully something about the plan will appear in the next edition of Steam Railway which is due out next week, as they have been giving this problem a sizeable amount of column space over the last couple of months.

Author:	ebtrr [ Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Steam trains could die out because of government crackdo
Kelly Anderson wrote: Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote: I had also heard a rumor that part of the reason for the shutdown of the East Broad Top was that the mines that formerly supplied the line's coal had also been depleted or shut down. I heard that too. As a tourist line, they continued to burn the remnants of their Broad Top coal, but it ran out a few years prior to their last run. You may have noticed that their engines were producing a lot more smoke those last few years, running on imported coal for the first time in their lives. Most of the underground mines on Broad Top Mountain had shut down by the mid-1950s (save for possibly #9 at Alvan) however strip mining was still very much in operation on the same seams and producing coal. Rockhill Iron and Coal (EBT's parent company) was producing more coal than they could sell. Reports were that at the end, coal was piling up in Mount Union awaiting sale, despite much reduced train operations. After the shutdown and sale, coal mining resumed under leases, but on a much smaller scale that did not require rail services. Coal for the locomotives continued to come from the Broad Top into the early 2000s or so, when sustained coal mining ceased and lower grade coal was brought in. Some sporadic mining on the Broad Top has occurred since then with at least one load coming to the EBT, but it was not sustained. In the latter decades the coal was not coming from the former R&IC lands on the east side, but rather the H&BTM area of the mountain. There is still coal in Broad Top Mountain, but it is not economic to mine it. The seams are very corrugated and wet making deep mining challenging, and most of the coal that can be readily strip mined has been removed.

Author:	Overmod [ Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Steam trains could die out because of government crackdo
Quote: "That's something. The UK was the coal supplier to the world for a hundred years or more. Now they are looking to import it." How quickly enthusiasts in the UK forget their own history! Some of the great issues in the late '40s, including the comparative testing leading up to the Standards, was influenced by a relative lack of good locomotive coal spurred by a need to increase foreign exchange; in no small part this led to the optimization, and then dropping, of oil firing for Bulleid's Leader. This is not a 'new' issue for steam in Britain!

Author:	Purdue66 [ Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Steam trains could die out because of government crackdo
Heritage coal mines, anyone?

Author:	WVNorthern [ Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Steam trains could die out because of government crackdo
Not too far from me there are still trains of WV coal heading toward Baltimore and foreign export. Does anybody know to what country that fuel is going?

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Author:	softwerkslex [ Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Steam trains could die out because of government crackdo
So I got really curious, and checked Google, and then found this vendor in west Denmark. I don't think it is our vendor, because our bags are white and these are yellow, and Vejle is a long way from Copenhagen. They want US$1000 for a 2204 pound bag of "locomotive coal", and for US$100 they will deliver it to the street in front of your building. About half of that price is tax. We have a 25% sales tax, and then there is a CO2 tax on coal ($236 per ton). Call me if you want me to place an order for you. https://www.lhm.dk/dk/produkter/kul-og-koks-produkter/lokomotivkul-plus35-mm-big-bag-1-tons/

Author:	Alan Walker [ Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Steam trains could die out because of government crackdo
Purdue66 wrote: Heritage coal mines, anyone? Nope. Coal mining is a unhealthy occupation, especially in the shaft mines. Bottom line is, government doesn't have to do anything to force us off coal. Market economics is doing that. If we're really lucky, you might get another five or ten years by having everyone buy in bulk from one source. Fossil fuels are really under the gun now and it's not going to get any better.

Author:	Chris Webster [ Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Steam trains could die out because of government crackdo
Alan Walker wrote: Bottom line is, government doesn't have to do anything to force us off coal. Market economics is doing that. Some data to back up Mr. Walker's point: US Energy Information Administration - Table 1.1. Net Generation by Energy Source: Total (All Sectors), 2009-May 2019 January 2018 was the last month in which the US generated more electricity from coal than natural gas.... and, in April of this year, the US actually generated more electricity from renewable sources (hydroelectric dams, solar panels and wind turbines) than it did from coal-fired power plants.

Author:	Dave [ Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Steam trains could die out because of government crackdo
Should we, as an industry, reach out to the operators of smaller mines that produce decent locomotive coal and see if, combined, we can provide enough volume to keep it open, even part time? I'd love to see the McBride or Hays Brothers stay open, just because they were neighbors when I was a small child...... but any would do.

Author:	softwerkslex [ Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Steam trains could die out because of government crackdo
But there will always be a need for coal to make steel, correct? Even if all electric plants close, there will still be some coal use.

Author:	G. W. Laepple [ Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Steam trains could die out because of government crackdo
One of the largest consumers of anthracite coal uses it in the manufacture of titanium dioxide, which is used to produce paper and paint, among other products.

Author:	Alan Walker [ Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Steam trains could die out because of government crackdo
softwerkslex wrote: But there will always be a need for coal to make steel, correct? Even if all electric plants close, there will still be some coal use. Yes. However, if there are only a handful of railroads ordering small amounts of coal, the sellers may decide it's not worth selling to small users. The best bet would be to find a good coal dealer willing to work with us and have everyone buy through that one seller. They might be able to negotiate a sale from a mine at a reasonable rate. The thing is that the steel mills can import coal from overseas if the price is right-we need coal mostly from a domestic source. Economics of scale could shutter most of the domestic producers.

Author:	ctjacks [ Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Steam trains could die out because of government crackdo
From which mine, or which dealer, are the current coal-burning steam operators getting their coal from today? I am thinking of Strasburg, D&S, C&TS, PM 1225, NKP 765, etc.? Are they all using the same source?

Author:	Alan Walker [ Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Steam trains could die out because of government crackdo
Not as far as I am aware. Therein lies the problem. If we all depend on different sources, we cannot possibly buy in the quantities needed to justify dealing with a "small" customer. D&S might use enough coal to warrant dealing with, but they have other problems that might see them changing. Even if we are successful in putting together some sort of group arrangement, all that does is buy us time-that's ALL that does. IMHO, we probably have less than ten years before coal will cease to be an option.

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Author:	Crescent-Zephyr [ Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:53 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Steam trains could die out because of government crackdo
Honestly it depends alot on who wins the next election. That doesn't mean I am or am not rooting for a certain outcome because of that... just saying it makes a difference. It seems pretty crazy to think that all the coal power plants in this country would get shutdown within 10 years, but nothing is impossible.