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 Post subject: Re: Visit to WMSR Shop / #1309 - 13 August 2019
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 3:23 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 1803
Location: Strasburg, PA
WVNorthern wrote:
Also, how hard would it be to lower the turntable? Doesn't sound like a cheap or easy job.
There is no such thing as lowering, there is only the absence of height!

If the turntable has the usual foot tall bridge timbers for a deck, one could replace them with something lower profile, say steel channel. One could also decrease the pitch between the steel ties, and then be able to substitute smaller rail as well. Might be worth a look.

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 Post subject: Re: Visit to WMSR Shop / #1309 - 13 August 2019
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 4:36 pm 

Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 1:33 pm
Posts: 402
Location: Oroville, CA
While lowering the table will require some MAJOR foundation work (and what drainage problems it might also cause), it would be far less area involved than all the other modifications to the station, streets, etc. Anyone know why the table was built at that height--I would think the rise onto the table has always been a bit an issue for any locomotive?

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 Post subject: Re: Visit to WMSR Shop / #1309 - 13 August 2019
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 3:38 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 1290
The immediate issue I see with lowering the table is that you'd need to remove the bridge, and then much of the pit to be able to place the jacks and props all around the ring rail and wall area. Then excavate to put big enough whalers across where all the jack heads in a ring are going to be -- how many jacks would that be? although you could probably rent them and their gang hydraulic/pneumatic controller from somewhere.

Then you arrange footings (temporary or permanent, but with adequate capacity) between the jack locations where the 'lowered' bottom of the wall/ring-rail part of the pit will come to rest, with proper tremie injection, and enough clearance that all the jacks and support stuff can be removed with the ring resting level and aligned.

Then make arrangements to foot and tremie the intermediate areas so you have the necessary circumferential support; fill (and backfill) as appropriate.

Then go back and drop/level the center bearing area, or just put in a new footing for it.

Then put in proper drainage/modern vaults, etc. before you cast, trowel off, expansion-joint etc. a new pit bottom to suit.

I think it might be actually doable compared to the grading alternative for the road crossing; the question then becomes whether the lowered location makes it difficult or impossible to use the tunnel in the (probably distant) future if that becomes desired?

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 Post subject: Re: Visit to WMSR Shop / #1309 - 13 August 2019
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 12:53 am 

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:54 am
Posts: 773
Location: New Franklin, OH
I think the tunnel might be moot. Between the south portal and Borden Shaft (south side of I68) much roadbed is gone and built over if you were thinking of extending south.

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 Post subject: Re: Visit to WMSR Shop / #1309 - 13 August 2019
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 3:37 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:48 pm
Posts: 61
Location: Watchung, NJ
Good evening everyone,

So I've quietly watched these WMSR threads and all the discussion about the Frostburg turntable with much interest. However, with all the discussion that has been posted about the two tracks leading to the turntable and the non-stop speculation about "what has to be done before 1309 can head to Frostburg", I remain completely perplexed by the complete lack of any discussion regarding the easiest and simplest solution for turning the 1309 on the turntable.

As a strong believer in the principals of Occam's Razor, the various arm-chair proposals being proffered here about what "has to be done" sort of flies in the face of the obvious solution to me.

If there is currently only one track (that requires no modifications) for the 1309 to reach the turntable, why are so many of you worried about the turntable being an issue? After all, you only need one track to reach the turntable in order to use it. Simply use the one good track for the 1309 to reach the turntable.

To the extent that people will undoubtedly try to then say .... "but you can't run around the train with only one track", I counter that logic with two questions: 1. Did the second track get torn up? and 2 ... If the second track did not get torn up, then why can't a diesel be used to either push (or pull) the train into the other track, leaving the turntable track free for the 1309 to return to the head-end of the train for the return trip?

Yes, such a maneuver adds an annoying switching move just outside of the station, but that operation is a far cheaper and easier solution than trying to raise a small fortune of non-existing money to overcome the shortcomings in the turntable design.

In the early days of Steamtown in Scranton, the run around maneuver at Moscow was accomplished with the assistance of a diesel. I remember a certain blue D&H RS3 was used to perform the pull-by at Moscow for the first season or two. For those of us old enough to remember the old Morris County Central RR operation out of Newfoundland, NJ, I seem to recall one of the line's little critters was used to facilitate their run-around maneuver as well.

So, given how difficult it was for the WMSR folks to raise the needed funds to complete the 1309, why are we still discussing very expensive solutions to the Frostburg turntable "problem" if a simple diesel and a little extra switching will resolve the "problem" immediately?

Just a little something to make you go ..... Hmmm ....

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 Post subject: Re: Visit to WMSR Shop / #1309 - 13 August 2019
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 5:00 am 

Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:55 am
Posts: 111
Eric S Strohmeyer wrote:
So, given how difficult it was for the WMSR folks to raise the needed funds to complete the 1309, why are we still discussing very expensive solutions to the Frostburg turntable "problem" if a simple diesel and a little extra switching will resolve the "problem" immediately?



The reason 1309 was chosen was getting rid of the unnecessary diesels.

Running with two locomotives and having to pay two crews will be much more expensive in the not so long run. This practice may only be acceptable when 1309 is ready to make profit, for the time needed to get the necessary permissions in connection with the alterations to the road crossing.

Mike


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 Post subject: Re: Visit to WMSR Shop / #1309 - 13 August 2019
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 10:02 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 9561
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
Eric S Strohmeyer wrote:
Good evening everyone,

So I've quietly watched these WMSR threads and all the discussion about the Frostburg turntable with much interest. However, with all the discussion that has been posted about the two tracks leading to the turntable and the non-stop speculation about "what has to be done before 1309 can head to Frostburg", I remain completely perplexed by the complete lack of any discussion regarding the easiest and simplest solution for turning the 1309 on the turntable.

As a strong believer in the principals of Occam's Razor, the various arm-chair proposals being proffered here about what "has to be done" sort of flies in the face of the obvious solution to me.

If there is currently only one track (that requires no modifications) for the 1309 to reach the turntable, why are so many of you worried about the turntable being an issue? After all, you only need one track to reach the turntable in order to use it. Simply use the one good track for the 1309 to reach the turntable.

To the extent that people will undoubtedly try to then say .... "but you can't run around the train with only one track", I counter that logic with two questions: 1. Did the second track get torn up? and 2 ... If the second track did not get torn up, then why can't a diesel be used to either push (or pull) the train into the other track, leaving the turntable track free for the 1309 to return to the head-end of the train for the return trip?


Left out of your discussion, because you apparently have never visited the Frostburg depot or didn't pay attention:

The turntable doubles as the turnout/switch from the main station track to the passing track. If you're going to run around the train at all with any locos, you need BOTH turntable tracks.


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 Post subject: Re: Visit to WMSR Shop / #1309 - 13 August 2019
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 10:45 am 

Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:55 pm
Posts: 46
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
Eric S Strohmeyer wrote:
Good evening everyone,

So I've quietly watched these WMSR threads and all the discussion about the Frostburg turntable with much interest. However, with all the discussion that has been posted about the two tracks leading to the turntable and the non-stop speculation about "what has to be done before 1309 can head to Frostburg", I remain completely perplexed by the complete lack of any discussion regarding the easiest and simplest solution for turning the 1309 on the turntable.

As a strong believer in the principals of Occam's Razor, the various arm-chair proposals being proffered here about what "has to be done" sort of flies in the face of the obvious solution to me.

If there is currently only one track (that requires no modifications) for the 1309 to reach the turntable, why are so many of you worried about the turntable being an issue? After all, you only need one track to reach the turntable in order to use it. Simply use the one good track for the 1309 to reach the turntable.

To the extent that people will undoubtedly try to then say .... "but you can't run around the train with only one track", I counter that logic with two questions: 1. Did the second track get torn up? and 2 ... If the second track did not get torn up, then why can't a diesel be used to either push (or pull) the train into the other track, leaving the turntable track free for the 1309 to return to the head-end of the train for the return trip?


Left out of your discussion, because you apparently have never visited the Frostburg depot or didn't pay attention:

The turntable doubles as the turnout/switch from the main station track to the passing track. If you're going to run around the train at all with any locos, you need BOTH turntable tracks.


In the scenario that Eric proposes, yes, you need both tracks - but only one of those needs to be connected to the turntable - to be accessed by the steamer. Cut off the engine before the siding switch, run the engine past the switch to turntable, throw switch, shove trainset into the other track, turn steamer, roll by trainset, back onto train and diesel, and go back home.

And regarding the argument of having a second crew - you could have a third fireman who can be qualified as engineer who can hop off the steam engine, walk back to the diesel, and perform the shove move. Or one of the brakeman can act in this capacity with the conductor throwing the switch/calling moves. Or the fireman can hop off and run the diesel while the engineer keeps an eye on the spot fire. More than one way to do this, just a matter of how much time you are willing to sacrifice during the moves. Expedite the move, will have to pay for your additional crew men. Drag out the move, less crew men. YMMV.


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 Post subject: Re: Visit to WMSR Shop / #1309 - 13 August 2019
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 11:45 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5765
Location: southeastern USA
Use the hot air from DC to fill large balloons to hold the pit up while tunneling and digging out the dirt from under it. Gradually reduce the number of blowhards in government until the turntable settles gently back onto its new base, along with the rest of the country. Two problems solved.

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 Post subject: Re: Visit to WMSR Shop / #1309 - 13 August 2019
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 12:56 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:44 pm
Posts: 11
If they need to use a diesel anyway, they would have been way better off just overhauling 734 in the first place.


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 Post subject: Re: Visit to WMSR Shop / #1309 - 13 August 2019
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 1:31 pm 

Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 1:33 pm
Posts: 402
Location: Oroville, CA
While Dave's suggestion has some merits, it has one major flaw, "Reduce the number of blowhards. . . " REDUCE? Have you ever seen government reduce????
OK, spending way too much time at home here. . . .

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Hoping for the return to the American Rivers of the last overnight steamboat, Delta Queen!


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 Post subject: Re: Visit to WMSR Shop / #1309 - 13 August 2019
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 2:38 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
Posts: 379
Location: Philadelphia, PA
I haven't seen a mention that a diesel with working dynamic brakes would be a very useful asset on the downhill movement back to Cumberland, saving a great deal of wheel wear.

Phil Mulligan


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 Post subject: Re: Visit to WMSR Shop / #1309 - 13 August 2019
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 4:18 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:48 pm
Posts: 61
Location: Watchung, NJ
Good morning everyone,

I just wanted to pass along a couple of quick follow-up comments in reply to a few of you.

Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:

Left out of your discussion, because you apparently have never visited the Frostburg depot or didn't pay attention:

The turntable doubles as the turnout/switch from the main station track to the passing track. If you're going to run around the train at all with any locos, you need BOTH turntable tracks.


Actually good sir, I have been to Frostburg on multiple occasions. As such, I'm very familiar with the station's configuration. The point of my comment was not to belittle the comments about "how" to correct the design deficiencies regarding the turntable so that both tracks could be used effectively, but to simply point out that no additional infrastructure is needed in order to be able to overcome those issues immediately.

As Mr. Walsh correctly surmised in his reply, he pointed out one of three possible switching scenarios that can be performed using the existing infrastructure that allows 1309 to lead in both directions, and reach the turntable so that it can be turned for the return trip.

Depending on what WMSR wanted to do with the diesel, it can either: 1. come up with the train from Cumberland (on whichever end of the train the railroad felt it best to put it on) or, 2. it can be left at Frostburg (if desired) in which case the 1309 can make the trip unassisted (except for the few hundred feet at Frostburg) in both directions without a diesel.

Yes, there is some additional switching that needs to be performed, and you do need a second locomotive in order to make the needed switching maneuvers. You may, or may not, need a second crew depending on where you place the diesel and what the specific qualifications of the individual crew members are. (Last I checked, the WMSR is not a union shop, so I doubt there are any shop rules that would preclude crew members from being qualified in more than one discipline.)

While I will certainly concede that permanent alterations to the turntable leads are in the best long term interest of the railroad, those improvements are NOT needed on day 1.

So, for those who are getting worked up over the 1309 not being able to use the turntable.... Chill out folks, its all good.... When 1309 is ready, to Frostburg it will go, and it can certainly lead in both directions and face the right direction while doing so....

That's all for now....

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 Post subject: Re: Visit to WMSR Shop / #1309 - 13 August 2019
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 8:45 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 1089
In their shop update https://wmsr.com/1309-restoration-restart-week-1/ there is this sentence, along with photos:

"Front engine #1309. Pilot, lubrication, and rail washing systems have received attention this week."

I must admit that I have never heard of a "rail washer" before, what is it?


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 Post subject: Re: Visit to WMSR Shop / #1309 - 13 August 2019
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 11:22 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:06 am
Posts: 215
A rail washer is just that. Some locomotives were so equipped so they could clear the applied sand off the rail behind the engine going up a grade. Sand left behind can increase the rolling resistance of the trailing tonnage and if you're loading your engine to the max any advantage you can gain sometimes pays off............mld


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