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 Post subject: Re: Visit to WMSR Shop / #1309 - 13 August 2019
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 8:23 am 

Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:56 pm
Posts: 137
Location: Ontario, Canada.
A side benefit to the rail washer might be the reduction of flange squealing.
A simple system was applied to ex-Canadian Pacific 4-6-2 No. 1201 when running regular excursion service between Ottawa, Ontario and Wakefield, Québec. The crew could run a bit of water on the rails on the tighter curves from the tender. It did help and kept the paying clients from grumbling.
Congratulations to the restoration crew on No. 1309. That is going to be an amazing piece of machinery to see and hear in operation.


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 Post subject: Re: Visit to WMSR Shop / #1309 - 13 August 2019
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 8:48 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2535
Location: Northern Illinois
Flange squealing = rail wear. Rail washers kept the 200 trailing axles from running over the traction sand, grinding away at the rail.

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 Post subject: Re: Visit to WMSR Shop / #1309 - 13 August 2019
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 9:11 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:54 am
Posts: 904
Location: NJ
The Shays at Cass also run water continuously over the lead wheels of each engine. You can see this quite easily from the car next to the engine.


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 Post subject: Re: Visit to WMSR Shop / #1309 - 13 August 2019
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 2:48 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:10 pm
Posts: 1055
I'm pretty certain the rail/wheel washer was a factory option with all Lima Shay locomotives.


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 Post subject: Re: Visit to WMSR Shop / #1309 - 13 August 2019
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 10:12 pm 

Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 5:19 pm
Posts: 468
Location: Bowie, MD
Isn't the washer also useful for removing leaves off the track? I recall seeing videos of 734 slipping on wet leaves.


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 Post subject: Re: Visit to WMSR Shop / #1309 - 13 August 2019
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 3:44 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3691
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Regarding the turntable:

OK, this is more than a little fantasy, and one wonders how much trouble you would get from NIMBYs in Frostburg, not to mention the money issue, but--

The problems with the turntable and the vertical kink getting onto it are because the grade was coming uphill into the tunnel, and the transition--the vertical curve--would have been right where the turntable is. The area was never engineered to have a turntable there, and that's your problem.

So, the idea, as nutty as it will sound, is to move the turntable to somewhere flatter.

Such an area might actually be available at the other end of the tunnel, which comes out under the intersection of Center Street and East Mechanic Street. The right of way is trees until you get to Bowery Street.

At Bowery Street is a parking lot that's easily large enough for the table. Against that, there are townhouses on the former right of way just beyond this on Paul Street (one border of the parking lot), and more houses on the other side of the parking lot on McCulloh Street.

How much cooperation could you get from the City of Frostburg, not to mention the people in those properties, who are likely not rail enthusiasts and will be hostile to a steam engine in their neighborhood?

At the same time, from an engineering standpoint, it may be the best option, although a bit pricey with the cost of renovating and maintaining the tunnel.

Maybe it's at least worth a trial balloon of some sort.

https://earth.google.com/web/search/Fro ... Hw7KVlg1PA


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 Post subject: Re: Visit to WMSR Shop / #1309 - 13 August 2019
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 4:06 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3691
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Some historic photos that may be of interest.

All quotations are by the late Jeremy Cooper, the original owner of this site,who passed away in 2019.

Frostburg ca. 1950

https://wmwestsub.us/georgescreeksub/fr ... 950map.jpg

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Approaching Frostburg from the west the C&P passed Maple Hurst Park before reaching the tunnel. This photo is looking east from Maple Hurst Park on 7-14-12. If one had the money I wounder how much it would cost to obtain the old right-of-way and relay tracks between the Frostburg Depot and Consol No.10? Afterall, anything is possible, it just has a price tag.


https://wmwestsub.us/georgescreeksub/ma ... t71412.jpg

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Looking east or upgrade on the C&P west of the Frostburg Tunnel. This is the location of the lumber yard the C&P/WM served and the reason this track was still in service when this photo was taken in 1968. The lumber yard is the building on the right. Today townhouses sit directly over top where the track once ran.(Don Biggs photo)


https://wmwestsub.us/georgescreeksub/fr ... rdeast.jpg

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Looking west downgrade on the C&P from the tunnel in 1968. Today, the end of the cut leading away from the tunnel stops here and has been filled in for a road to cross. A row of rundown townhouses now sit on the former right-of-way of the Cumberland & Pennsylvania RR. (1968, Don Biggs photo)


https://wmwestsub.us/georgescreeksub/fr ... alwest.jpg

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We may have to climb up to the now filled bridge site on Bowers Street.

https://wmwestsub.us/georgescreeksub/fr ... epot08.jpg

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Two photos from 1968, showing the west portal of C&P's Frostburg Tunnel in the summer and winter. (Don Biggs photos)


https://wmwestsub.us/georgescreeksub/fr ... aleast.jpg

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https://wmwestsub.us/georgescreeksub/fr ... astice.jpg

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These two photos are looking down into the cut at the west end of C&P's Frostburg Tunnel.


https://wmwestsub.us/georgescreeksub/fr ... epot06.jpg

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https://wmwestsub.us/georgescreeksub/fr ... epot07.jpg

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Four photos taken on 6-28-11 by Cody Haer from down at C&P's Frostburg Tunnel and inside the tunnel. Looks as if the tunnel is dry and the brick lining is in good shape. These photos were taken on the western end of the tunnel.


https://wmwestsub.us/georgescreeksub/fr ... dyhaer.jpg

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https://wmwestsub.us/georgescreeksub/fr ... dyhaer.jpg

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https://wmwestsub.us/georgescreeksub/fr ... dyhaer.jpg

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https://wmwestsub.us/georgescreeksub/fr ... dyhaer.jpg

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I myself took these for photos on the eastern side of the tunnel. I was not prepared to go into the tunnel as I did not have a flash light or a good flash on my camera. I did however get these four photos. The first two are about the same spot and both looking west into the tunnel. You can see light in the first shot from the west portal. The second shot shows two timbers that have fallen from the ceiling of the tunnel. As you can see the west side of the tunnel is lined with brick where as the east side is timber lined. Brick and concrete do not reappear until you come to the portal itself as seen in the photos. A few small collapes of the stone wall and some bricks are visible. (7-14-12)


https://wmwestsub.us/georgescreeksub/fr ... 141201.jpg

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https://wmwestsub.us/georgescreeksub/fr ... 141202.jpg

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https://wmwestsub.us/georgescreeksub/fr ... 141203.jpg

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https://wmwestsub.us/georgescreeksub/fr ... 141204.jpg

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Home page; the site is very worth exploring.

https://wmwestsub.us/


Last edited by J3a-614 on Fri May 22, 2020 4:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Visit to WMSR Shop / #1309 - 13 August 2019
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 4:34 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3691
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
From the east end of the tunnel.

All quotations are by the late Jeremy Cooper, the original owner of this site, who passed away in 2019.

I highly recommend this site, it's well worth exploring.

https://wmwestsub.us/

https://wmwestsub.us/main.htm

Opening commentary regarding Frostburg:

Quote:
On September 1, 1953 the C&P was merged into the WM. The WM began to rid itself of duplicate lines as the Eckhart Branch was abandoned as well as 5 1/2 miles of the mainline. The track was pulled from Mt. Savage Jct. to Mt. Savage, which later became Rt. 36. The remaining track was left to serve the brick works at Zihlman and Mt. Savage. The 2.6 miles of track between Borden Shaft and Grahamtown was also removed making the C&P two seperate sections of track with the western end being worked from the WM at Westernport and the eastern end being worked from the WM at Switch No.9. Much later during 1972 the track from No.9 to Frostburg Depot was removed due to a lumberyard on the west side of the tunnel switching from rail service to trucks. The depot would sit trackless and boarded up until arrival of the Allegany Central Tourist trains.


Quote:
Two photos taken near the east portal of the Frostburg Tunnel. The first in 1968 ad the second in 2012. First photo is looking west into the cut and portal. Second photo is also looking west towards the now abandoned C&P Frostburg Tunnel. (1968, Don Biggs photo)


https://wmwestsub.us/georgescreeksub/fr ... talice.jpg

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https://wmwestsub.us/georgescreeksub/fr ... 141201.jpg

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This photo is looking east from the east portal of Frostburg Tunnel on 7-14-12. I climbed up on the accumulated shale that has fallen from the hillside and collected on the roadbed. It would take much to clear this shale out and regrade the right-of-way to the tunnel. If only just to lay track into the tunnel to show how it used to look.


Added note--You can see the power arch for the turntable in the gap in the trees.

https://wmwestsub.us/georgescreeksub/fr ... m71412.jpg

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The track to the right in this 1968 photo was being used by a small concrete company. The company would get covered hoppers in from time to time. Some of the compainies trucks can be seen in some of the photos. The second photo is about the same location, although a dirt pile now lays where the switch to the highway dept tracks used to be. The dirt pile came from the ground that was excavated during the installation of the turntable. (1968, Don Biggs photo)


https://wmwestsub.us/georgescreeksub/fr ... aydept.jpg

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https://wmwestsub.us/georgescreeksub/fr ... 12ee02.jpg

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Don Biggs photographed the C&P mainline as it leaves west from the road crossing at the C&P Depot. Notice how much the tracks rise up to the switch and onto the tunnel. I shot WMSR 734 on the turntable, which now sits about the same location and the switches in the first photo. (1968, Don Biggs photo and 7-14-12)


https://wmwestsub.us/georgescreeksub/fr ... otwest.jpg

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https://wmwestsub.us/georgescreeksub/fr ... e71412.jpg

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Looking east down the C&P at the tracks in front of the depot in 1968. The track to the far left at the time was being used by the highway department for snow removal. Chemicals came in, in covered hoppers are were unloaded into trucks. You can see two unloading locations in this photo. The covered hoppers were spotted over a chute that led out and off the retaining wall to a waiting truck. (Don Biggs photo) I photographed WMSR 2-8-0 734 still with the throttle wide open as it approached the C&P Frostburg Depot. This train was run during the 2004 WMRHS Convention in Cumberland, Md. This train was very long and has two GP30's pushing it up the hill from Cumberland.


https://wmwestsub.us/georgescreeksub/fr ... oteast.jpg

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Pictured here just to the east of the Frostbug Depot up on the hillside near the tracks was this foundry. This foundry once built steam locomotives for the C&P when the Mt. Savage Shops were busy. There was even a turntable here and is in the circled parking lot in front of the white house behind the depot today. (1969, Don Biggs photo)


https://wmwestsub.us/georgescreeksub/fr ... nbiggs.jpg

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The Paul's Foundry and the destruction a tornado caused in Nov. 1891 to it and other locations in Frostburg. (thanks to Bob Lemmert for photo)


https://wmwestsub.us/georgescreeksub/fr ... ornado.jpg

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Home Page.

https://wmwestsub.us/


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 Post subject: Re: Visit to WMSR Shop / #1309 - 13 August 2019
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 5:06 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:48 pm
Posts: 61
Location: Watchung, NJ
Attachment:
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UMMMMMM3.jpg [ 5.11 KiB | Viewed 1514 times ]


Umm.... Hmmm.... OK, .... For once, I'm without words.....

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CNJ Rail Corporation


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 Post subject: Re: Visit to WMSR Shop / #1309 - 13 August 2019
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 8:19 am 

Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:55 am
Posts: 111
Just for curiosity:

Is the wye at Carpendale still functional at all? Or will CSX now show up such hospitality towards the WMSR to use its turntable three times a week once 1309 is ready?

Mike


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 Post subject: Re: Visit to WMSR Shop / #1309 - 13 August 2019
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 11:42 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:06 pm
Posts: 15
Just thinking out loud here. My understanding is the problem is the abrupt vertical kink caused by the turntable approach being on an upgrade transitioning immediately to the flat turntable bridge. Would the easiest solution be to simply raise the track in the center of the turntable to make it a slight arch rather than flat? That would smooth the elevation change over distance of 45-50 feet rather than the immediate transition they have now.


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 Post subject: Re: Visit to WMSR Shop / #1309 - 13 August 2019
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 3:56 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:55 pm
Posts: 765
Location: Warren, PA
Those are just great photos. I particularly like the old one of Frostburg that shows that abrupt crest at the Depot St. road, and the one of 734 coming off the turntable where the drop in alignment right off the table is evident. The surprise to me was that well, it was literally always that way, they just put the turntable in where the flat spot was and brought in the approach tracks....

And as I said in my first post, the problem is more political/funding than engineering. Rather than mess with the turntable it easier to raise the approach with a lift, ease the vertical and horizontal curves, and fix what's already a rather odd road crossing surface. And also has been said, existing conditions don't prevent 1309 from running, it's just really, really awkward to turn it around without doing something or just live with a two-locomotive and possibly two-crew operational cost issue.

While I've been all over the ex-C&P on the final approach to Frostburg, how it got back into Cumberland was always pretty fuzzy, and I've also been all over the south/west side that's Georges Creek into Westernport, but never figured out the Piedmont connection. Well, if I'm confused even with the excellent photos posted here, this has to be the 'best map ever' of a railroad to explain it.... including the 'wha????' of not one, but two switchbacks on the east approach, if that's actually right. This was certainly not built as a main line!
https://korns.org/misc/CPRR-map-38/CPRR-map.html

It really wasn't all that clear to me just how Frostburg was effectively a dead-end branch after WM took the line over, which also meant that there wasn't much effort to resolve any lingering alignment glitches, particularly when the tunnel was a major clearance problem to begin with.


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 Post subject: Re: Visit to WMSR Shop / #1309 - 13 August 2019
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 5:20 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:31 pm
Posts: 297
[quote="Randy Gustafson"]T

While I've been all over the ex-C&P on the final approach to Frostburg, how it got back into Cumberland was always pretty fuzzy, and I've also been all over the south/west side that's Georges Creek into Westernport, but never figured out the Piedmont connection. Well, if I'm confused even with the excellent photos posted here, this has to be the 'best map ever' of a railroad to explain it.... including the 'wha????' of not one, but two switchbacks on the east approach, if that's actually right. This was certainly not built as a main line!
https://korns.org/misc/CPRR-map-38/CPRR-map.html

Look at an aerial map of Piedmont and look for Baltimore Ave... the old C&P alignment is still very evident as Baltimore Ave was built on top of were the C&P ran....

Tim W.


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 Post subject: Re: Visit to WMSR Shop / #1309 - 13 August 2019
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 6:19 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 1290
And not just cleaning sand off the rail behind. If there is crap built up on the rails, perhaps including oil, either steam or hot water could be used to blow it off followed by sand application for enhanced traction. See the GE supersonic-hot-air blower from a few years ago for a modern version, and the LaserTrain rig used on a couple of New York subways for a still more modern one...

Then you'd wash or blow the broken sand off the railhead before it can get onto wheeltreads and carried around to drop onto bearings or 'enhance the friction' between treads and applied brakeshoes...

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 Post subject: Re: Visit to WMSR Shop / #1309 - 13 August 2019
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 8:20 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:14 pm
Posts: 112
I may be a minority here, but I have been around steam nearly 10 years, and one thing I've learned is they are always a bit more forgiving then the builders would suggest. Running engines designed for 28 degree curves on 30.5 degree curves for example...on a daily basis. We didn't even have to change anything in the lateral. Causes a little extra wear, but flange greasers help. For us its the nature of the railroad, which was designed for far smaller engines then we have now, and we need the larger power to turn a profit. I have a feeling that once the engine is finished, if they were to simply carefully run it onto the turntable, with people watching each side, I'd be willing to be it would make it onto the turntable fine. there might be some small tweaks you can make to improve it further, Personally I think humping the track on the turntable would help, so the slopes kinda of match going onto the table, while humping back down on basically straight track. One thing I've learned over the years, despite people's best efforts to make it seem like it is, steam aint rocket science. Also Baldwin built a cheap product, thats why there are so many Baldwins, their tolerances were....loose, to say the least. Giving modern machinists Baldwin plans with their tolerances is rather amusing sometimes, watching their heads explode over a 1/8" tolerance in a part. Though we try to keep things much tighter then Baldwin.....or any railroads for that matter, ever did.

I'd bet it would do it with a little moaning, its not like they are flying onto the table at 50 MPH, were talking about a slow creep. I think once they get her running, they should just try it. Worst case, they find out they were right and have to rerail it. Best case they find they have nothing to worry about.


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