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 Post subject: Milw EP-2 Kirkwood Mo
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:53 pm 

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:40 am
Posts: 448
Hi everyone, I am interested in what the general condition of the sole surviving EP-2 is overall? Is this loco missing alot of components that would prevent it from ever running again?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPUt-3PBcp8

The EP-2 is my favorite of the Milw electrics and I am just wondering what the overall condition of the last remaining example is at current? Looks like several of the traction motor cutouts have been pulled. Makes me think she is missing some traction motors?

Robert


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 Post subject: Re: Milw EP-2 Kirkwood Mo
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:33 am 

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:04 pm
Posts: 151
I am glad you posted that link as that is the link to my You tube channel. As you can see by the video it is in good condition with the majority of the parts and pieces intact. The steam boiler was obviously missing. My knowledge of electric locomotives is limited but I did not see anything missing that would prevent it from returning to operational status. I probably should have filmed more around the outside of the locomotive but it was a extremely cold day that day.

I would have to look through my photos, but if I remember right it was missing some traction motors but not all of them. At least both control stands are intact which would be very difficult to reproduce. You can always run a locomotive on one or two traction motors. If also shot video of the inside of one of the Little Joe locomotives if you are interested. The museum had to downgrade the electrical system but it is operational. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0Pv2xm_Wv4


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 Post subject: Re: Milw EP-2 Kirkwood Mo
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:51 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:02 pm
Posts: 81
Location: Mi
The Bi-Polars are an interesting concept. they didn't have traction motors in the traditional sense, e.g. a case with an armature connected by gears. The armature and the axle were one in the same and the name comes from having a field coil mounted between each axle that have two coils per axle, hence "Bi". My details may be a off. they were sold as easy to service and the coils mounted directly to the frames gave magnetic fields less interference from being tightly packed against each other. Regardless they were supposed to be very quiet, dangerously quiet, even under full power.

I highly recommend the book by Noel Holley "The Milwaukee Road Electrics" if you want to learn more. Mr. Holley was an EE for the railroad IIRC.


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 Post subject: Re: Milw EP-2 Kirkwood Mo
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:11 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
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Location: Inwood, W.Va.
I've never been west of Columbus, Oh., so I'm afraid everything I have will be speculation.

In regard to the traction motors, as Paul D noted, these would be different from anything else you would see. What you would be looking at would be motors with pole pieces mounded on the frame, and the armature on the axle or on a quill (hollow tube) surrounding the axle. There would be no gears at all, and the motor would be quite large. It would be a motor that couldn't be used on anything else except another EP-2. That suggests the possibility that all the motors are there, though I would not guarantee that--unless this unit was the last one operating, it's possible some of the motors or parts could have been cannibalized to keep other units running.

Gearless motor armature on axle, City and South London Railway. Although a good deal smaller, this is what the axle and the armature mounted on it would look like under an EP-2.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... motive.jpg

Having said that, and even if you had all the parts or some way of providing replacements, the big question is, where would you run it? This is a large unit, meant to run on 3,000 volt DC current. Who has anything like that today?

And would the museum allow the unit to go away to where you had the track and requisite catenary?

And of course, where would you get the cubic dollars for the overhaul and restoration you'd need?

Make no mistake, it would be wonderful to see this and any other Milwaukee electrics run again, but it would be a tall and steep mountain to climb to get there. I'd say it would be a greater challenge than restoring steam, and that's saying something!!


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 Post subject: Re: Milw EP-2 Kirkwood Mo
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:07 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:05 pm
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I am setting here looking at a painting called "The Olympian" that shows a Bi-polar pulling a passenger train through the Cascades. It was probably based on this photo:

https://www.milwelectric.org/wp-content ... -cover.jpg

If I remember correctly the two surviving Milwaukee box cabs are just shells.


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 Post subject: Re: Milw EP-2 Kirkwood Mo
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:22 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
Posts: 243
Location: Philadelphia, PA
The NYC S-class (2-D-2) and T-class (B-B+B-B) used between Grand Central Terminal and Harmon/North White Plains are also gearless bipolar motors.

Restoring the MILW Bipolar to service will call for 3000 volt DC overhead wire as well as insulating all the wiring for 3000 vDC. I'd like to see a cosmetic restoration first.

Watching an S-motor switch cars at GCT was weird. Since they have no gears they're pretty much silent.

Phil Mulligan


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 Post subject: Re: Milw EP-2 Kirkwood Mo
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:46 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
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There are some good historical accounts on the Web of the design, construction, and early history of the Batchelder 'bipolar' motors.

Remember that this is the result of a 1950s rebuilding by the Milwaukee that made this a 70mph locomotive. You'd think the unsprung mass would produce just the opposite, and that some kind of quill drive would be superior ... but no.

Someone who remembers their Milwaukee history can remember why some of these conversions weren't built to the standards they should have been to be fully effective.

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 Post subject: Re: Milw EP-2 Kirkwood Mo
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:12 pm 

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:40 am
Posts: 448
Tom F wrote:
I am glad you posted that link as that is the link to my You tube channel. As you can see by the video it is in good condition with the majority of the parts and pieces intact. The steam boiler was obviously missing. My knowledge of electric locomotives is limited but I did not see anything missing that would prevent it from returning to operational status. I probably should have filmed more around the outside of the locomotive but it was a extremely cold day that day.

I would have to look through my photos, but if I remember right it was missing some traction motors but not all of them. At least both control stands are intact which would be very difficult to reproduce. You can always run a locomotive on one or two traction motors. If also shot video of the inside of one of the Little Joe locomotives if you are interested. The museum had to downgrade the electrical system but it is operational. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0Pv2xm_Wv4


Hi Tom,

I have watched several of your videos and found them very interesting. The EP-2 is a very interesting design along with the EF4 little joe.

There is a little about the rebuilding of the EP-2 here, https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/bipolar-electrics

To the others, I said nothing about restoring this locomotive to running order. I just want to know more about it's mechanical condition. The Milw Electrics are well before my time. I only got to know about them through the pages of railroad magazines.

Robert


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 Post subject: Re: Milw EP-2 Kirkwood Mo
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:12 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
Posts: 243
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Interesting quill drive should come up.

The GE EP-2 Bipolars were assigned to the Coast Division (Tacoma/Seattle - Othello) while the contemporary Westinghouse EP-3's (2-C-1+1-C-2) had paired motors and quill drive and were assigned to the Mountain Division (Avery - Harlowton).

Quill drive is a hollow pseudo-axle that goes around the actual weight bearing axle. It allows the traction motors and quills to be fully suspended with the motors geared to the quills and the power transmitted through spring cups to the wheels and vertical motion absorbed also by the spring cups.

To illustrate the basic success of the design, I should note that PRR GG1's have paired motors and quill drive.

Phil Mulligan


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 Post subject: Re: Milw EP-2 Kirkwood Mo
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:02 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 1193
Note that the twin motors as found on the GG1 are notable for being the first design that could be made small enough to install 'underfloor' in an articulated frame. You can see paired motors on quill drive of that style (flanking the axle driving on a common bull gear) long before this, but those motors are of more considerable size.
The NYC's P-motors, for the CUT electrification, are very similar in underframe size and were built only slightly earlier but have single pinions and motors. So, if I recall correctly, did the virtually stillborn "Mikado replacement" PRR L6 class.

Motors of considerably greater capacity became available very shortly after the GG1 design was made. These are in the DD2, and were prospectively in the "GG2" called for in the 1943 electrification plan over Horse Shoe to Pittsburgh. As it was, the wartime production was restricted to 'more GG1s' and the 'what might have been' was essentially stillborn. It is interesting to consider what the larger 62" wheels might have allowed as a practical increased running speed in a 2-C+C-2 version...

As an aside, note the family resemblance between the DD2 nose and that of the final 'greenlighted' version of the V1 turbine six years later. (Not as good, in my opinion, compared to the GG1...)

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 Post subject: Re: Milw EP-2 Kirkwood Mo
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:37 pm 

Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 10:22 am
Posts: 527
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If I remember correctly the two surviving Milwaukee box cabs are just shells.


The A/B? two unit MILW Boxcab at the museum in Duluth, MN appears to be complete.

It also inside, but landlocked.

-Hudson


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 Post subject: Re: Milw EP-2 Kirkwood Mo
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:39 pm 
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Posts: 2078
Location: Pac NW, via North Florida
I saw this locomotive in 2002 when I was in the area on business. I asked around, as I live not too far from where it was used. One of the museum people said he'd looked inside E2 a few years prior to that and said something like half of everything inside was missing.

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 Post subject: Re: Milw EP-2 Kirkwood Mo
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:24 pm 

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:04 pm
Posts: 151
I visited the Milwaukee Road boxcab in Montana and shot a video of that one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tya81hB8jE

I believe all the electric motors that drive the wheels were missing. Could not see much from the cab window but interior looks mostly intact. Control stand was there and the guts of the middle section were still there.

Someone else posted this good video of the inside of the two Milwaukee Road box cab electrics in Minnesota. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVcTF7rEWko (skip to 8:08) They look like they are complete and in excellent condition.

I remember someone saying earlier that the Milwaukee electrics were very quiet. They were so quiet that the bell rang non stop when ever they were in motion (at least that is what they said about the Bi Polar electrics). Must have drove the crew crazy.


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 Post subject: Re: Milw EP-2 Kirkwood Mo
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:56 pm 
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Location: Hamilton, Illinois
Somewhat off topic, but a friend gave me this photo of a Milwaukee Bipolar operating at the 1949 Chicago Railroad Fair. It has been a mystery to me how it was powered. It looks like there is a metal pole stretched over the pantograph shoes to simulate the overhead wire. But if that's the case, how was power delivered to that device? Was there a generator or battery hidden somewhere in the locomotive body? Or was the power delivered to the motors in some other manner? I would be interested in your comments.


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 Post subject: Re: Milw EP-2 Kirkwood Mo
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:16 am 

Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 8:26 am
Posts: 23
rlsteam wrote:
Somewhat off topic, but a friend gave me this photo of a Milwaukee Bipolar operating at the 1949 Chicago Railroad Fair. It has been a mystery to me how it was powered. It looks like there is a metal pole stretched over the pantograph shoes to simulate the overhead wire. But if that's the case, how was power delivered to that device? Was there a generator or battery hidden somewhere in the locomotive body? Or was the power delivered to the motors in some other manner? I would be interested in your comments.


I know this is an old thread but I have often found answers to my questions in older posts.

According to this site, https://www.rgusrail.com/ilcrf.html it was powered by hidden storage batteries.


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