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 Post subject: Norfolk Southern Surpluses Rebuilt Executive F's
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:34 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 9312
Location: Somewhere north of Prescott, AZ on the Santa Fe "Peavine"
Reports spreading all over social media, including from at least a couple more reputable sources, indicate that Norfolk Southern has put its quartet of four "Tuxedo scheme" business train F units--two ex-B&O/MARC A units and two ex-CGW/C&NW B units--on the surplus loco auction list.

The units have been heavily rebuilt to GP38-2 standards with rebuilt 645 engines. Therefore, these are extremely poor preservation candidates, but excellent commercial-operation prospects for someone like Branson, Grand Canyon, or another high-traffic excursion operation.

Let the speculation, fundraising, telling others what to do with their monies, etc. begin...........

EDIT:
BIDS DUE BY NOVEMBER 20th......


Last edited by Alexander D. Mitchell IV on Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:59 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Norfolk Southern Surpluses Rebuilt Executive F's
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:54 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 1193
To save time: there's been a thread going on the Kalmbach Trains Magazine forum for days on this topic, hitting all the usual suspects issues. We could save time (and a likely swap over to Railfanning) by just referencing it.

http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/278276.aspx

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 Post subject: Re: Norfolk Southern Surpluses Rebuilt Executive F's
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:26 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:07 pm
Posts: 570
Location: B'more Maryland
Why not preservation candidates?

I bet an E7 seemed like a bad candidate for preservation when it was retired, too.


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 Post subject: Re: Norfolk Southern Surpluses Rebuilt Executive F's
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:34 pm 

Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:36 pm
Posts: 18
Location: Bucks County and West Chester, PA
Ed Kapuscinski wrote:
Why not preservation candidates?

I bet an E7 seemed like a bad candidate for preservation when it was retired, too.

"Poor candidates" in the sense of lacking the original prime movers and other modifications that have been made, I believe. As mentioned, they may serve well with a high demand excursion operation for the same reasons.


Last edited by Tyler H. on Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Norfolk Southern Surpluses Rebuilt Executive F's
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:35 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm
Posts: 521
[quote="Ed Kapuscinski"]Why not preservation candidates?

I think the point was, since the engines have been heavily rebuilt and modernized, they aren't good museum pieces. In my mind they have even more of a story to tell since they have survived in operation so long. But different view points I guess.


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 Post subject: Re: Norfolk Southern Surpluses Rebuilt Executive F's
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:28 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:21 pm
Posts: 413
Location: Danbury, CT
The “Santa Fe” units in Galveston are in the same category. They’re not “authentic”, but they are reliable runners that spare the “artifacts” from the wear and tear feared by the purist preservationists.

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 Post subject: Re: Norfolk Southern Surpluses Rebuilt Executive F's
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:21 am 

Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:05 pm
Posts: 207
Quote:
these are extremely poor preservation candidates

Really? Ordinarily I wouldn't even bother to jump into a thread like this anymore, because this has been beaten to death on RYPN before. But apparently some people still miss the point of what preservation is about. I'm with Ed K on this one. I have a hard time with anything less.

What the rest of you (above) are saying is that it's not worth preserving anything that isn't in as-delivered-from-the-builder condition. So I guess we have to scrap about every single piece of saved equipment out there because it apparently doesn't accurately represent anything. Scrap all the former LS&I engines including 734, 18, 29, all of Strasburg's engines, 4014, 643..... General, Texas and Pioneer as they exist today should definitely be hidden in a dark shed away from the public or scrapped. Or is there a rule somewhere that any modification more than x-number of years from manufacture or later than 1980 (pick any date) makes a piece unworthy?

Should we insist that Ridler Award show cars are scrapped because they aren't even close to their original configuration? Maybe vintage aircraft shouldn't be allowed or even current revenue aircraft because they've had an engine or a wing or a tail swapped out. Wouldn't want to fly on anything that didn't leave the factory that way (WIN for Boeing!)! Practically every trolley museum has to scrap their entire collection and museums everywhere close up shop unless they can replace enough visitors that would've come to ride the demonstration railroad (or see horses pull authentically reconstructed wagons, etc.) with those happy to look at dog-eared black and white vintage photos on a wall with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back to explain what each one was....

Get over it. Every preserved piece has a story to tell and history doesn't/didn't stop at some arbitrary point. Right now would be a good time for museums to be grabbing SD40-2s for preservation or -7 toasters, or Conrail C40-8Ws and SD60Is, or SP GP-60s and ATSF GP60Ms. A few museums have grabbed a few 2G and 3G schmiesels, but I guarantee precious few are in as-delivered configuration. Even 4G and 5G locos should be snapped up by museums now, because with the emission regs and Green movement what we see as common today might be gone in ten years or less. What NS did was necessary to equip their business train, and that should be a candidate for preservation and interpretation just as much as the original John Bull (and again, that's not completely original either). If the urea-based Tier IV locos go out of favor as too big a PIA vs other solutions, will any museum preserve one of them as an example of that technology - or is it too new for you?

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 Post subject: Re: Norfolk Southern Surpluses Rebuilt Executive F's
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:39 am 

Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:30 am
Posts: 202
Glad to see someone speaking up about that nonsense.


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 Post subject: Re: Norfolk Southern Surpluses Rebuilt Executive F's
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:17 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 9312
Location: Somewhere north of Prescott, AZ on the Santa Fe "Peavine"
When I stated "extremely poor preservation candidates," I suspect MOST folks here knew exactly what I was talking about:

1) All four locomotives have been HEAVILY rebuilt, internally AND cosmetically, and are a mere shadow of their original configuration. If you want a B&O or CGW/C&NW F7 looking and working anywhere close to "original," you'd have a LOT of work ahead of you. Not impossible, but your monies might be better spent elsewhere. I would severely question the judgement of anyone that bought one of the F7A's just to "have a B&O F7".

2) The museums or operations that "everyone" without enough awareness would instantly declare "should" or "needs to" get any of these--the B&O Railroad Museum, the Illinois Railway Museum, etc.--already have both representative examples of these (for example, the B&O Museum has both an ex-WM F7 and a MARC cab unit rebuilt from a B&O F7) and operable motive power adequate for their needs. Even other operators like Potomac Eagle already have "proper" motive power. (Now, to be fair, I instantly started to wonder if there was a way for the Western Md, Scenic RR to make these work for them...... but I'm not "going there" right now.)

3) NS will want (and deserves) serious money for these locomotives, given the amount of work put into them. It's not even 100% out of the question that another major railroad will acquire them for executive train duty, although there is a more likely prospect that a commercial excursion operator will grab them. It is not even completely implausible that someone on the order of The Friends of the 261, the Fort Wayne 765 guys, Cuyahoga, etc. could pick these up for future main line operation on the likes of the New River Train, etc. If you have a desire for "old-time streamliners" to sell your brand of railroading and have the money, you'd almost be a fool NOT to bid on these. But then you're not "running a museum."


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 Post subject: Re: Norfolk Southern Surpluses Rebuilt Executive F's
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:30 pm 

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:40 am
Posts: 448
These units are best suited for operations like Branson Scenic or Grand Canyon Ry. They may even end up with another class 1.

They used to be F9PH units running for Marc. I quite liked the appearance of them when operating for Marc. They also retained their original internals at that time. Sadly they are no longer historical in some sense. But their outward appearance is still that of a EMD car body diesel. Their appearance makes them candidates for preservation.

If someone wants a "original fabric F unit" there are several available currently for sale. The most in danger are the Milw FP7 and F7B unit still sitting at Noblesville Indiana. They also have a former GN F3 B unit carcass.

Next most in danger of scrapping is the IPH, Ex Minnesota Zephyr F units. They are in horrible shape mechanically and subject to scrapping. Their wheels are not rail legal which makes them a bear to move.

IPH also has for sale what I believe are the last two unmolested F9PH units from Marc, Nee B&O F7 units. I'd love to see these two retain their Marc body configurations. There was only 5 of these F9PH conversions by M&K.

The CNR 9163 for sale by IPH is missing it's pilot, But is actually a fair restoration candidate for a F unit.

Robert


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 Post subject: Re: Norfolk Southern Surpluses Rebuilt Executive F's
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:02 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm
Posts: 521
Why couldn’t they be preserved as NS F units? I could see an operation like Spencer or TVRM, or Altoona wanting them as is. That’s part of their history and heritage.


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 Post subject: Re: Norfolk Southern Surpluses Rebuilt Executive F's
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:51 pm 

Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:04 pm
Posts: 35
Crescent-Zephyr wrote:
Why couldn’t they be preserved as NS F units? I could see an operation like Spencer or TVRM, or Altoona wanting them as is. That’s part of their history and heritage.


THIS.

As others said, it may be far fetched due to the price range they'll probably fetch, but stranger things have happened! Don't know until you place a bid and see what happens.

How many executive units are even preserved? All I know of is the BN set at IRM. If advertised right, I can see it being a major draw to tourists and railfans (especially the current generation) alike. Even if it's just one of the four.


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 Post subject: Re: Norfolk Southern Surpluses Rebuilt Executive F's
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:20 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 905
I think some of the posters in this thread are missing the subtle distinction between "preserved" and "used in a tourist operation". A synonym for "preserved" is not necessarily "used in a tourist operation", and the opposite of "preserved" is not necessarily "cut into scrap." I can't speak for the OP, but I believe he was using the term preservation in the sense of a museum artifact, excluding heavy use in a tourist operation under that definition. As has been noted, there are plenty of F units in danger of scrapping out there that would require less work to become artifacts.


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 Post subject: Re: Norfolk Southern Surpluses Rebuilt Executive F's
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:37 pm 
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Posts: 111
Location: Alberta, Canada
I think there are surprisingly few F and E units out there that are 100% original.

Speaking for my own organization's collection of three F-units (F3A, FP9, F9B), the F3A is closest to its original configuration (24RL brake, original cab layout) but has a 567BC engine instead of its original 567B. The FP9 and F9B have been modified even further, with 645C engines and 26 brake equipment. They have also had their steam generators removed and been re-geared for 65 mph, instead of the original 83 mph. Not to mention the ditchlights on the FP9.

But they look nice on display, and do a excellent job of illustrating 1940s and 50s locomotive design to our visitors. In fact, the various modifications make a good talking point when giving tours, to illustrate how long these particular units remained in service, and the various modifications the railroads made as improved parts became available.

And honestly, I think a lot of the public couldn't tell the difference between a EA and a F9 if you placed them side by side, to say nothing of what (if anything) currently resides under the hood.

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 Post subject: Re: Norfolk Southern Surpluses Rebuilt Executive F's
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:09 pm 

Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 10:03 am
Posts: 110
Also of note, NS is selling the 999 RP4 Battery Unit for the second time (never actually sold at the Roanoke auction last time), an MP21E, two of the ex Reading SW1001’s, two MP15E’s, an SD40-2 Carbody and frame to scrap, and a handful of others. I thought the 999 would be sent to Roanoke or the Altoona museum since it was the first fully battery locomotive out there. I’d hate to see it scrapped...


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