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 Post subject: Re: Norfolk Southern Surpluses Rebuilt Executive F's
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:25 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 1215
Quote:
"Also of note, NS is selling the 999 RP4 Battery Unit for the second time ... I’d hate to see it scrapped..."


The very likely problem here is similar to the reason the original M10000 was scrapped and not preserved. The 'scrap value' (and perhaps adaptive-reuse value) of the batteries is likely well outside what any museum would be willing to bid (or NS to donate). Getting the batteries out of the carbody is like getting the 710s and AC gear out of the Starships.

Is there enough 'historical value' in preserving just the chassis, without the majority of the electrical gear that made it significant? (I'd argue 'yes' for the same reasons that GG1s shorn of their main transformers still have preserved value.) But any attempts to preserve the shell of 999 are going to require money, or organized volunteer effort, to remove the salable items, in salable condition, to preserve 'the rest'.

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 Post subject: Re: Norfolk Southern Surpluses Rebuilt Executive F's
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:23 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:44 am
Posts: 674
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
For those not familiar with #999. I wasn't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altoona_Works_BP4

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 Post subject: Re: Norfolk Southern Surpluses Rebuilt Executive F's
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:58 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:30 am
Posts: 210
That SD40-2 in particular is silly. I believe I read that she was stripped for rebuilding with a new cab when layoffs struck Roanoke. So they've decided just to scrap it rather than rebuilding her at a slower pace (Not a good sign for Roanoke, I'm afraid) or shipping it to Altoona.

At the very least storing it for the next SD33ECO would've made sense since she's already been partially stripped down and that's step #1 for a SD33ECO conversion. But apparently NS is deciding they may have more SD40-2's than they actually need and have decided it's simpler just to sell it for scrap (The model wasn't hit bad in the early months of PSR, but the storage lines appear to be growing in recent roster updates at NSDash9.com).

The #999 would make someone a fine road slug candidate. I believe she has a new cab, new control stand, new wiring, rebuilt trucks and traction motors, etc. Kind of silly to let it go in fact when she'll almost certainly be sold off for salvage value rather than reuse in-kind, especially when they're building two new four axle slugs from the ground up right now at Altoona to pair with two more GP33ECO's (Including new frames since NS lacks any GP38/40 frame donors in the deadlines).

Perhaps they think someone will pay a premium for a battery powered switcher, but her failure at NS hasn't exactly been a well kept secret, so I very much doubt it. I imagine it will go for little more than scrap value, perhaps even less if there's not a secondary market for the 864 lead-carbon batteries she has onboard that the buyer instead would then have to pay disposal fees on before cutting her up or rebuilding it into something useful.


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 Post subject: Re: Norfolk Southern Surpluses Rebuilt Executive F's
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:55 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:25 pm
Posts: 25
Location: Franklin,Va
Bennett Levin has the two former PRR E-8a locomotives that Conrail upgraded for its then executive train in Philadelphia which have been mentioned here in RYPN several times. They were restored to their late 1950's appearance but kept some of the Conrail upgrades.


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 Post subject: Re: Norfolk Southern Surpluses Rebuilt Executive F's
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:48 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 4174
Location: Maine
NS dumping the elite F units instead of simply storing them for the future is a bit odd, don't you think? It's not like they don't have room or that the locomotives were run down. Here's a nice matched set of unique, streamlined, passenger locos. I'm just a bit surprised.

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 Post subject: Re: Norfolk Southern Surpluses Rebuilt Executive F's
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:39 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
Posts: 272
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Bennett Levin's E-8's are original PRR units that flowed to PC, then Amtrak. They are two of five E-8's rebuilt by Amtrak with HEP generators and assigned to mostly New Haven-Boston service.

Amtrak traded them to Conrail for four SW-8's. Then they flowed to NS and CSX in the CR breakup.

Thus, most of the rebuilding was done by Amtrak.

To avoid confusion, the first E-8 retained by Conrail was Erie/EL 833 which became CR 4022 when it flowed directly from EL to CR. It was not rebuilt to HEP and has been returned to Erie colors as 833 again.

Phil Mulligan


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 Post subject: Re: Norfolk Southern Surpluses Rebuilt Executive F's
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:03 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:07 pm
Posts: 575
Location: B'more Maryland
Richard Glueck wrote:
NS dumping the elite F units instead of simply storing them for the future is a bit odd, don't you think? It's not like they don't have room or that the locomotives were run down. Here's a nice matched set of unique, streamlined, passenger locos. I'm just a bit surprised.


I think it's to send a message, to be honest.


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 Post subject: Re: Norfolk Southern Surpluses Rebuilt Executive F's
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:46 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:40 pm
Posts: 35
"Numbers matching" is a silly notion when it comes to the railroad. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Norfolk Southern Surpluses Rebuilt Executive F's
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:46 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 1215
Quote:
"Numbers matching" is a silly notion when it comes to the railroad. :)


Yes, but that isn't what he said. He's referring to a matched set, two As and two Bs that go together as a coherent group, much like bookends or cocktail glasses.

There may be some 'spotting differences' still, but by and large it's four carbody-matched F units as he indicated.

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 Post subject: Re: Norfolk Southern Surpluses Rebuilt Executive F's
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:12 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:54 am
Posts: 16
Ed Kapuscinski wrote:
Richard Glueck wrote:
NS dumping the elite F units instead of simply storing them for the future is a bit odd, don't you think? It's not like they don't have room or that the locomotives were run down. Here's a nice matched set of unique, streamlined, passenger locos. I'm just a bit surprised.


I think it's to send a message, to be honest.


What's the message, I wonder?


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 Post subject: Re: Norfolk Southern Surpluses Rebuilt Executive F's
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:12 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 954
Headend Shield wrote:
Ed Kapuscinski wrote:
Richard Glueck wrote:
NS dumping the elite F units instead of simply storing them for the future is a bit odd, don't you think? It's not like they don't have room or that the locomotives were run down. Here's a nice matched set of unique, streamlined, passenger locos. I'm just a bit surprised.


I think it's to send a message, to be honest.


What's the message, I wonder?

Remember a few years back when NS was subject to an unwelcome takeover by hedge fund billionaire Bill Ackman, who I believe still controls Canadian Pacific? He essentially told NS's board that they would make more money if they turned over control of NS to him, as he would cut all the "fat" (only) from NS as he claims to have done at CP. The CP steam program was just a symbolic victim of his approach. In response NS ended their steam program and started to tear up track they had held onto in case of traffic upturns (the Peoria and Eastern between Bloominton and Danville IL was a victim of this move), again mostly symbolic but it was enough for NS's current management to retain control and keep Ackman out. It is entirely possible that the purging of these units is another symbolic move by NS management as a message to the Wall Street types who control the railroad's board. (I may have some of the timeline off, this is all from memory.)


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 Post subject: Re: Norfolk Southern Surpluses Rebuilt Executive F's
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:21 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:30 am
Posts: 210
It's a wasted effort if that was the case. The major investors on Wall Street know nothing about the executive units. They only care about the numbers.

I wonder if it's a message of a different sort now that layoffs are starting to appear. Maybe they're trying to signal to their employees that they're not going to be spending money on what may appear as a "frill" when someone's job is on the line.


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 Post subject: Re: Norfolk Southern Surpluses Rebuilt Executive F's
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:53 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 954
LeoA wrote:
It's a wasted effort if that was the case. The major investors on Wall Street know nothing about the executive units. They only care about the numbers.


What I said exactly is it is possibly aimed directly at the Wall Street types who make up NS's board:
PMC wrote:
It is entirely possible that the purging of these units is another symbolic move by NS management as a message to the Wall Street types who control the railroad's board.


If they don't know about the F units, presumably having rode behind them multiple times on the office car special, then they are breaking their fiduciary responsibility as representatives of shareholders.


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 Post subject: Re: Norfolk Southern Surpluses Rebuilt Executive F's
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:27 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 9369
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
Two updates:

1) The story made Trains Magazine's online Newswire today, courtesy of Dan Cupper:

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/20 ... r-oddities

2) I just now was in conversation with a client with a far-fetched, but absolutely within the realm of possibility, use for the quartet.
I jokingly--JOKINGLY--asked, "So, you need an A-B-B-A quartet of F-units rebuilt to GP38-2 specs to replace those worn-out things you're running on [name withheld]??"

He replied "Do you know of any?"

Thinking he's just jerking my chain, I sent him a link to the above article and this thread.

His next comment was "Hmmmmmmm. How do I bid on the auction?"

He was dead serious. He has access to money. He has a REAL, serious "need" for these. He was so busy with work and other stuff that he never got to hear about this "limited time" offering. He quickly and quietly "hung up" on me--presumably to work the phones with his partners/superiors/etc.

NEVER, NEVER assume that every qualified, appropriate, or sensible preservationist, museum or excursion outfit hears about EVERY potential preservation or acquisition opportunity. "Networking" is only as good as the connections we make and USE. (Of course, the opposite of that is 5,000 slobbering foamers e-mailing the same museum "You HAVE to get this!!!!")


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 Post subject: Re: Norfolk Southern Surpluses Rebuilt Executive F's
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:22 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:54 am
Posts: 988
Location: Tucson, Arizona
If TVRM were to ask for one of the Fs, NS would probably consider donating one or more of them (considering what they've recently donated to them). That said, the Fs might fit in under TVRM's mission statement.

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