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 Post subject: Re: Baldwin 'Sharknose' locomotives will eventually go to mu
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:34 am 

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:04 pm
Posts: 198
Paul D wrote:
There have been several reason circulated on why open season was declared on railfans at the E&LS.

One was the injury story.

another was the constant trespass and entry into sacred places.

another was that Baldwin stamped critical information on the builders plate of each block that is required to set the injectors valves etc. (I am curious, not having worked on Baldwin diesels, if someone can confirm this fact), and one night a collector/railfans removed/liberated/stole a number of these plates from locomotives and rendered them unrepairable.

Regardless of the reasons Mr. Larkin has put his money where his mouth is by stepping up and not just preserving, but properly restoring a fleet of historic equipment that otherwise would be mostly lost by now.


Some engines do have data plates for injector timing on the engine. You could find the same information in manuals which can be bought on Ebay or is often posted for free in PDF form on the Internet from some historical society. Even if all that data was lost most diesel mechanics could fine tune that engine just by adjusting the injectors as it was running.


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 Post subject: Re: Baldwin 'Sharknose' locomotives will eventually go to mu
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:48 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 1138
I'm not sure what the consensus is about hoarders, whether they end up furthering rail equipment preservation or hindering it, but I dislike being trolled.


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 Post subject: Re: Baldwin 'Sharknose' locomotives will eventually go to mu
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:20 am 

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:28 am
Posts: 399
Location: Ipswich, UK
Not quite the same, but don't forget there are some Baldwin RF615E broad gauge locos with a "sharkish" style front end preserved in Argentina.

This one, preserved by Ferroclub in Buenos Aires, was certainly operational in 2007.....

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 Post subject: Re: Baldwin 'Sharknose' locomotives will eventually go to mu
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:58 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 9667
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
There was a joke floating around at one point (in the vein of April Fool jokes) that SMS Services near Philadelphia had gone down to Argentina looking for parts for their Baldwin fleet, and had instead brokered a deal to bring back for re-trucking and operation one of these "Argentine Sharks"............


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 Post subject: Re: Baldwin 'Sharknose' locomotives will eventually go to mu
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:23 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 1290
Quote:
"Some engines do have data plates for injector timing on the engine. You could find the same information in manuals which can be bought on Ebay or is often posted for free in PDF form on the Internet from some historical society. Even if all that data was lost most diesel mechanics could fine tune that engine just by adjusting the injectors as it was running."


Have you had much experience with Baldwins? Many of the manuals are notorious for being very specific to the locomotive they 'go with', and some other version from a different source might have wholly different details.

In any case a 608 uses individual mechanical jerk pumps for each cylinder, and I suspect that as with the 8.5 liter Detroit the injectors are carefully individually shimmed 'at the factory' to get the combustion chambers volumetrically equal, as well as injector timing being adjusted via shimming. I do not know how you or anyone else would 'fine tune' that setup by 'adjusting' anything 'as it was running', as the only thing easily externally adjustable is the gang shaft for overall speed control. The thought of approximating some sort of flow bench arrangement to get the injectors properly set after maintenance, in the absence of specific shim information, on an engine of that size and weight is not too pleasant to contemplate ... even less than metalspraying a severely scored crankshaft -- this is an EXTREMELY large crankshaft, for those who have never seen one out of an engine.

There are some details of the arrangement described (with illustrations for a 608SC) in the Series 600 Sales Bulletin 349, which has conveniently been reproduced here:

https://www.azrymuseum.org/Projects/Magma_10/Bulletin%20349.htm

Now, I am NOT saying that a good diesel mechanic couldn't get one of these running given time, experience, and some special and perhaps proprietary tools. I don't think many museum staffs have people in the necessary category, however, or would be willing to pay the cost of 'training' to acquire full Baldwin 'competence' if it had to be paid for.

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 Post subject: Re: Baldwin 'Sharknose' locomotives will eventually go to mu
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:45 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 9667
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
A question that has been raised several other places online:

"What's he waiting for? Why doesn't he just give them to the museum now?"

The answer may have been revealed with a discussion/back-and-forth I had with other museum and preservation railfans and "players" online. They pointed out--quite validly, if you ask me--that museums change over time, and not always for the better.

Steamtown, for example, became a ward of the National Park Service (for better or worse--not gonna argue that here, please). The B&O Railroad Museum went from being a ward of CSX to being a private foundation. Some places have done a good job of preserving their collections and rationalizing their holdings, while others continue to sit on a bigger collection than they can manage--and in a couple such cases of the latter, keep adding more stuff anyway.

There are museums that have seemingly become gradually better known as "playgrounds" or "venues for rent" than actual museums. There have been "mom and pop" operations that have "gone corporate"--again, for better and worse.

Once you donate something like a locomotive or book collection, you lose control of it, excepting a "permanent loan" scenario or "right of first refusal" written into the donation. I have personally seen a major piece of rolling stock donated to one museum that, after the museum in question changed mission slightly, was declared surplus literally the moment the last of the donors died, and was sent a thousand miles away, clearly in complete violation of the donors' intentions. There are still parties that participated in the restoration of that piece with very hard feelings on that disposal.

It's possible, if not likely, that Mr. Larkin is (and has long been) watching how the various museums operate, from both a logistics and business sense, and wants to assure for himself for as long as possible that the intended recipient(s) "keep their noses clean," or however we want to phrase it, and remain a good destination. There are probably other factors being invoked, such as quiet negotiations behind the scenes over how it would be transported, how soon it would be restored, raising funds for transport and restoration, etc. Remember also that "he" still runs a railroad, one that always appears to be on the financial edge to boot.

You have to be a bit loony to want to get into collecting historic rolling stock, anyway, so trying to apply "reason" to such scenarios usually doesn't add up anyways.........


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 Post subject: Re: Baldwin 'Sharknose' locomotives will eventually go to mu
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:18 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:19 am
Posts: 198
Location: Decatur, GA
Refresh my memory--Are the Sharks stored at the same place that has all of the ex-SAL Baldwin switchers?

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 Post subject: Re: Baldwin 'Sharknose' locomotives will eventually go to mu
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:47 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 9667
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
Andrew Durden wrote:
Refresh my memory--Are the Sharks stored at the same place that has all of the ex-SAL Baldwin switchers?


Close enough.

Even I'm not sure of the precise location of this "warehouse/bunker" (and I've looked online out of curiosity), but it's presumably in the same Zip code or adjacent. The former SAL Baldwin RS12's, and the remains of 1-2 end-cab Baldwin switchers, are in plain view in online satellite views between the roundhouse and the nearby river.


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 Post subject: Re: Baldwin 'Sharknose' locomotives will eventually go to mu
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:55 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2547
Location: Northern Illinois
Not everything is by the roundhouse. Mr. Larkin owns the former P&H crane manufacturing site. A couple of the large erecting buildings are leased to other businesses; at least one houses the better, or more fragile, pieces of his collection.

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 Post subject: Re: Baldwin 'Sharknose' locomotives will eventually go to mu
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:41 pm 

Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 10:22 am
Posts: 540
Was looking for something else and found this:


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