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 Post subject: Re: East Broad Top sale
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 6:35 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
Posts: 698
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
Further, this is a private bridge on a private RR, which probably does not fall under FRA jurisdiction because it does not (YET!) "connect to the general system", in a very rural county.
No, that is not correct.

See FRA's Bridge Safety Standards.
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All of the above points really make the case for "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
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And if a simple dent in the flange of an I-beam is enough to "obviously" condemn it completely, I need to send you with your flashing lights and sirens to about 25 overpasses that I can think of with such dents, at least one in regular passenger service........
No offense intended Brother Mitchell, but you don't know what you're posting about.
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 Post subject: Re: East Broad Top sale
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 9:21 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:51 pm
Posts: 156
Location: Ipswich, Mass., Phoenix, AZ
Sandy- Yes, those are abutments; I was thinking of another bridge as I wrote, my 74 year old mind sometimes loses focus. Simple rule for whether or not the FRA gets involved: Does the railroad cross a public highway. If "yes" then the FRA gets into the act. That's one reason why the WW&F is not (for the time being) going any further- they'd have to cross a public road. FRA is involved with the Cumbres and Toltec and they don't connect to the national system. Finally, the damage to the stringer is a little more than a "dent".
And that's all I'm gonna say.
Ned


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 Post subject: Re: East Broad Top sale
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 9:42 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5764
Location: southeastern USA
This could work:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=yo ... &FORM=VIRE

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Corollary: "He who does is doomed to watch those who don't repeat it anyway."


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 Post subject: Re: East Broad Top sale
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 10:10 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
Posts: 698
Dave wrote:
No, I don't think so.

The short answer is to go look at the pictures of the EBT bridge and note all the flammable timbers sitting atop the beam.

Longer answer is that heat straightening is for rolled or built-up (welded together) I-beams. The EBT bridge's beam is riveted together.

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 Post subject: Re: East Broad Top sale
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 11:12 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:51 pm
Posts: 1799
Location: Southern California
nedsn3 wrote:
Simple rule for whether or not the FRA gets involved: Does the railroad cross a public highway. If "yes" then the FRA gets into the act.
The EBT crosses a public road -- it is even a numbered state route -- just going from the round house to the depot. So the FRA is should be involved with the railroad.

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 Post subject: Re: East Broad Top sale
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 11:32 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:54 am
Posts: 903
Location: Califoothills / Midwest Prairies / PNW
Honestly and respectfully, I don't know why there is all this paper napkin design for new bridges by experts in the field or in other fields. I simply know that when it comes time to fix the problem, the source of money and the cost of the repairs and any permitting hassles will drive the design. Hopefully historical integrity can be accommodated, but seeing the EBT running again would be great enough for me.

If I were to spec this project, I would include the historic bridge sides as sacrificial beams placed in front of the new bridge. Hopefully the new bridge will age enough to look old when the originals finally collapse due to repeated hits or rust.


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 Post subject: Re: East Broad Top sale
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 9:45 am 

Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:52 pm
Posts: 65
Just to clarify, the 49 CFR Part 237 Bridge Standards apply, even to insular rail operations that have bridges as defined and outlined in the regulation.

See footnote number 5 in the FRA guidance.
https://railroads.dot.gov/legislation-r ... -railroads

MD Ramsey


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 Post subject: Re: East Broad Top sale
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 2:00 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 12:53 pm
Posts: 235
Location: Manchester, NH
MD Ramsey wrote:
Just to clarify, the 49 CFR Part 237 Bridge Standards apply, even to insular rail operations that have bridges as defined and outlined in the regulation.

Yes, they most certainly do apply, even to the insular, two-foot gauge, historic, WW&F.

Fortunately, one of our members is also a licensed bridge engineer and inspector.

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 Post subject: Re: East Broad Top sale
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2020 1:11 am 

Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:54 am
Posts: 903
Location: Califoothills / Midwest Prairies / PNW
I do hope for great things in the near future for the EBT. A recent video I saw made me think that the EBT is perhaps the closest thing the US has to the Ffestiniog railway in the UK. There has been a recent award of a large sum of money to restore and interpret the older buildings at the Boston Lodge facility where the railway began (before steam locomotives) and later expanded, providing a variety of support functions which it continues to do today. It is somewhat like the Orbisonia/Rockhill shops of the EBT. Perhaps it is nothing like the EBT so far as ridership, popularity, and available funding for such a project, but it still makes you think a bit about what might be possible in PA. This video is an hour long, but worth the watch!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_J8_0pmEqU


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 Post subject: Re: East Broad Top sale
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 1:49 am 

Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 8:46 am
Posts: 20
Location: Altoona, PA
Just updating this since I mentioned it in another thread:

Per the Foundation via the railroad's Facebook page, and also via Trains Magazine, #14 and #16 are the chosen pair to return to operation first. #14 ran during the Kolvalchick era (last run was...2001?), while #16 hasn't steamed since her last service call on March 29, 1956 a couple weeks before the end of common carrier operation.

The Trains article is NOT behind a paywall:

https://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2 ... sYPAUaezLQ

This photo posted by Christopher Brang is looking down into the open steam dome of #16--first time filled with water since 1956:

Image

EDIT: They found the person responsible for the damage to the Runk Road overpass. What comes of that remains to be seen.


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 Post subject: Re: East Broad Top sale
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 10:55 am 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 4:02 pm
Posts: 1273
Location: Back in NE Ohio
Nos. 14 and 15 overlapped (14 at the end of it's 1472 time and 15 having just been overhauled) in 2005, the last year the Railfan Weekend had two engines operating at once. Those of us much older remember when they could field four locomotives for the Winter Spectacular. Maybe someday... Maybe all six?


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 Post subject: Re: East Broad Top sale
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 11:03 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 1799
Location: Strasburg, PA
PaulWWoodring wrote:
Nos. 14 and 15 overlapped (14 at the end of it's 1472 time and 15 having just been overhauled) in 2005
#14 has never had a 1,472 SDI. The end of her operation coincided with FRA finally taking jurisdiction at EBT from PA (Actually, FRA might have grandfathered her to finish the season in the year they took over, but no 1,472. That's why she still had asbestos lagging.). #15 is the only engine that has operated under full FRA jurisdiction.

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 Post subject: Re: East Broad Top sale
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 11:33 am 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 4:02 pm
Posts: 1273
Location: Back in NE Ohio
Ok, Kelly, my misunderstanding. At any rate, I was sure about the year involved.


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 Post subject: Re: East Broad Top sale
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 4:44 pm 

Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 8:35 pm
Posts: 256
I'm kind of surprised that #15 wasn't chosen since it was the engine most recently overhauled. Were #14 and #16 chosen because they are favorites; or does #15 require far more work than it's required FRA work ?
I like them all; just curious !

Kevin K


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 Post subject: Re: East Broad Top sale
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 8:48 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 1799
Location: Strasburg, PA
kevin kohls wrote:
I'm kind of surprised that #15 wasn't chosen since it was the engine most recently overhauled. Were #14 and #16 chosen because they are favorites; or does #15 require far more work than it's required FRA work ?
Only speculating here. #16 was chosen for not having been run in the tourist era, i.e. she is in much better condition. Why choose #16 over #18, I don't know. I was told that they wanted to avoid dealing with two superheated engines if possible, saturated engines are simpler to maintain. #14 had some fairly heavy (by EBT standards) running gear work done in the late 1980's, so she is probably in better overall condition machinery-wise than #15.

Stanley Hall always held that #15 was "lazy" compared to #14. I have no idea why, perhaps her valve gear is more heavily worn. IIRC, #15 has some crack damage to her left cylinder block. I don't know any more about it than that.

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