What you need to understand is that there really isn’t a downside or diminishing return to a full restoration aside from that potential “loss of original fabric” that you mention. As people have said, things can be found during restoration that create stories, or could even help out with future preservation.

The easiest example of that in my opinion comes with 491 just a few years ago. When 491 was cosmetically restored, a discovery was made with the paintwork on the tender and on the locomotive, restarting the “Green boiler debate”, something that couldn’t have occurred if 491 wasn’t restored.

Freight cars converted to passenger service, such as the cars you mentioned can be transferred back.

Also, the C&TS train they’re setting up is supposed to be set from around 1916, not a Victorian era one.

491 was restored after 20s restoration was already underway. Jeff was not at the musuem at the time, and someone else was in charge. He was the one who made the choice to restore 491 and convinced the board to do so. I have mixed feelings on 491, it's cool to see, but seems a bit much for a musuem operation. I also had a small hand in working on her, so I'm happy to see my work come to a running engine.

318 was torn down for restoration back in the 80's and the condition of her boiler halted work. Some things were done in an attempt to make her run again, she had even had most of her running gear finished to operate. As I understand it, 318 needs heavy boiler work to operate safely. Her tender also is full of holes, I remember one of the last times 346 ran with 318s tender about ad much water was coming out the Bottom as was going into the boiler.

318 is not a great candidate for running. D&RGW 2-8-0's are everywhere. Honestly 20, being an RGS 10-wheeler us much more unique to me. Up till 3 years ago, almost all Colorado narrow gauge in operation was either a 2-8-0 or a 2-8-2. Now 2 10-wheelers are operational....or damn close to it.

I'm surprised nobody has posted a link to Jim Wrinn's recent post about Rio Grande Southern 20:

http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/staff/archive/2020/06/03/colorado-railroad-museum-on-the-restoration-of-rio-grande-southern-20.aspx

OK, people, I'm going to be a "devil's advocate" here and ask this. It would surely be great if we "preserved" No.20 in its "as last used" condition. HOWEVER The ONLY people who could possibly appreciate the artifact are the folks who actually know something about it. EVERYONE else will look at the hulk and ask why that piece of rusty junk hasn't been sent to the scrapper!
A museum must have something to draw the unwashed public and give them something to appreciate. A rusty hulk is not gong to cut it. So, how do we preserve this kind of equipment?
A cosmetic restoration to make the piece appear complete and still tell its story is probably best, but again, only someone with prior knowledge of the artifact and its history can appreciate the scratches and dents. If you want to draw the public into the romance of the thing, then a restoration to operation is a good idea. The general public sees either an operating thing or rusty junk. Either, Or.

Thank you for pointing out to me the arrogance of the situation. This view and many others assume that the museum guest are not interested in history. So why did they come? Is it Thomas, North Pole express, pumpkin patch, or some other event. I am sorry if that is your view point. Yes many of our guest know little of the subject but they have enough curiosity about the subject to spend their time to show up. The least we can do is not insult their intelligence and value the time that they have given to us to educate them. Just what do you explain or interact with your guest? The expert has already taken the time before he gets to your property to learn about it. What the experts learn depends upon what is available. What these position may show is the ignorance to our own collections. What research have we done on the artifacts we are entrusted with their care? Even if the research is done who knows it and how is this knowledge shared?

Robby Peartree

None of the 6500 series flats have been transferred back to a flat car but one as a converted passenger car was sold to the D&S. The "Victorian Era" is their advertising term for the locomotive round up. so thank you in presenting the issue before us in which the marketing does not match the reality.

Robby Peartree

I cannot help but recall a saying, I think it may have originated with Paul Merriman in regard to the 4501--that preserving a steam locomotive statically was, for him, and I would assume many others, the equivalent of "propping up a corpse."

Let us recall the difference between a cold locomotive in a museum--and one that's hot, ready for service. The cold one is, as one fellow wrote to me, "a clunky mechanical monster"--but hot, becomes alive, a machine "of surprising speed and grace."

How many of us, who are steam fans, became so of cold museum engines--and how many did so because of a hot engine, a living machine, with its heat, its humidity, its sounds, its smells?

One is a cold piece of iron, the other, a breathing iron horse.

I would say the bulk of us became fans because of hot engines, or because of dreams of making cold engines hot again.

Which might be more effective at getting visitors and support?

I'm not saying this has to be done with every steam locomotive. We know that's not possible. I am saying that maybe we shouldn't knock the people who get these machines running again. Goodness knows their jobs are hard enough without unnecessary naysaying from those who should be their allies.

Given the sum total of your philosophy as posted in this thread, I take it that there has not been, and cannot be a restoration to operation (or a cosmetic restoration) that meets with your approval. Can you point out any restored piece of railroad equipment that does meet your standards as described? I don’t believe that any restored locomotive has a boiler lagged with asbestos, and no modern paint job has used lead paint, both strikes against them per your communicated way of thinking.

Indeed.

From Google

An example of 100% unadulterated historic fabric.

In our restoration of Frisco 1522, we endured some criticism from several "experts" concerning the destruction of the original fabric. We had the audacity to install a radio, 26L brake system, a second lubricator, electric speedometer, temperature monitorin and a few other modern amenities. The poor experts were aghast. Much wailing and hair pulling.
I don't recall seeing any of them riding any of our trips. The railroad on the other hand complimented us on having a cab in which a contemporary engineer would recognize and we were able to repair brake parts on the spot. We had to swap out our 26L automatic valve and were back under way in 45 minutes.
The trainload of poor dolts who paid to ride were blissfully unaware that they were riding behind a bastardized locomotive. The "experts" were often seen chasing and photographing, but never supporting us.
You have to make concessions if you're going to run on a mainline railroad. We met the requirements and the .002% of naysayers were outvoted.

Below is the link to the The Secretary of the Interior's Standards for the Treatment of Historic Properties which the introduction describes as, "common sense historic preservation principles in non-technical language".

So, if one applies common sense, a technical degree in a subject area such as metallurgy is not dispositive to one's understanding and mastery of historic preservation principles.

https://www.nps.gov/tps/standards.htm

Link has been added to the "RyPN.org Guide to Frequently Asked Questions and Interchange" announcement at the top of the board listing. My apologies if my post to the announcements is duplicative.

Wow the 1522 was a sucess. What is its current schedule? While operating for a while when is the last point it been out on the road? By the way the only brake valve I seen suddenly fail on the road is the 26L automatic. The 6 systems on a couple of railroads and even the 24 rl in trailing diesels at GCR while I was there were more dependable.

Robby Peartree

This may come as a shock to you but wood quality has changed over the years due to changes in new growth vs old growth. Assuming that your replacing with the exact is just not possible given these known differences. Even changes in steel production are creating changes in common steel properties for a given chemical analysis. While we can get close we are not at the "exact" same naterial or even anticipated properties.

I recall a bridge designer telling me in class that all steels break the same and I realized the limits to his material education. For the record numbers one use like yield and tensile strength for a given material are created from averages. There are many upper level thesis on these tests.

When restorations are done i suggest these issues be considered. There are techniques like splicing and graphting that can be done if one chooses that route.

Robby Peartree

[/quote]Thank you for pointing out to me the arrogance of the situation. This view and many others assume that the museum guest are not interested in history. So why did they come? Is it Thomas, North Pole express, pumpkin patch, or some other event. I am sorry if that is your view point. Yes many of our guest know little of the subject but they have enough curiosity about the subject to spend their time to show up. The least we can do is not insult their intelligence and value the time that they have given to us to educate them. Just what do you explain or interact with your guest? The expert has already taken the time before he gets to your property to learn about it. What the experts learn depends upon what is available. What these position may show is the ignorance to our own collections. What research have we done on the artifacts we are entrusted with their care? Even if the research is done who knows it and how is this knowledge shared?

Robby Peartree[/quote]

Having been born in 1947, my only memory of steam was lines of locomotives waiting for the scrapper. I have been, variously, a model railroader, a foamer, and finally an active and fairly knowledgeable steam restoration person. I am currently a member of two museums. Back in the 1970's my wife and I visited IRM and Mid-Continent. They were just starting and everything was out in the open and there were mountains of rusty railroad artifacts. I loved it. My wife, not so much. But they were operating steam and that's what mattered. Don't get me wrong, a stuffed and mounted steamer is a great thing. Both I and my wife can appreciate it. An operating steam locomotive is the holy grail. My wife will happily drive hundreds of miles with me for the experience. SHE is the one who wanted to chase the 4014 when it came to Minnesota! But a run down hulk, preserved in the condition that the railroad left it does not do anything for either of us. UNLESS it has some historical significance BESIDES being the "the last of". Railroad museums are not just for rail enthusiasts who already know a thing or two. To survive they must also tickle the imagination of the average joe. Something as esoteric as the scars and dents from a derailment are of little interest to a non-railroad geek. The equipment has to look like it will operate if only we could build a fire in it. That's what gets the imagination juices flowing and keeps the average museum visitor coming back. That's why I work on steamers.

I am sure that when a railroad repaired an engine that they used the materials currently on hand. Thus a wood cab from 1880 destroyed in a wreck in 1920, would use wood from 1920, and another wreck in 1940 would necessitate 1940 wood and the same for steel and paint. So we get an engine at a museum built in 1880 but last rebuilt in 1940. What is "original"?.

There is a concerted effort in Egypt to repair and stabilize many of the monuments there.
If they were to do that by the "proper" restoration standards, they then should cut the blocks from the original quarry with bronze wire and sand, shape them with bronze chisels and wood hammers, and drag them into place with hundreds of laborers, rather than using a diamond saw, cutting them to fit properly in minutes and moving them into place with modern construction equipment.

Guess the Egyptians better hope that Robby doesn't become a member of the "Pyramid Preservation News Interchange" chat room!