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 Post subject: Re: Rio Grande Southern 20 update.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:40 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2006 1:18 am
Posts: 420
Location: San Francisco
Quote:
The USS Constitution, a wooden sailing ship, on the other hand has had much if not all the original material replaced in an effort to keep it whole. Although a specific board isn’t original to day one doesn’t mean that taken as a whole it isn’t the actual and original ship.


Chris' explanation is excellent.

A crucial distinction that some seem to breeze past, is that the work done on the USS Constitution is Replacement-In-Kind. While a tree cut down in 2020 will be different from one cut down in 1794, it is still wood, probably of the same species. They are not replacing the wood with a resin-based product, they aren't adding steel channels to the keel, and they certainly aren't adding maneuvering thrusters to make it easier to dock. I am sure that some modern safety appliances have been added to the ship, but they are not changing the design and construction of the vessel. That is why we can still say it's the same ship.

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 Post subject: Re: Rio Grande Southern 20 update.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:15 pm 

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:35 am
Posts: 101
Location: Strasburg, Pa.
I have watched this tread with great interest over the last several days and I finally have to speak up.
For a little background, I was with the Strasburg Rail Road Company for 33 years, retiring as the Assistant Chief Mechanical Officer in March 2019. I was involved with the #20 project and have been around the block many times with both our own equipment and many contract jobs. The vitriol thrown at Jeff is inexcusable. He is simply doing his job to the best of his ability and is very dedicated to the cause. He didn’t make the decision to start the project, he is simply seeing it to completion. I certainly appreciate the updates and am pleased to see this project coming to a successful conclusion. The negativity in this thread is why people don’t want to get involved in the historical/preservation field. It is many times not just a thankless job, but one of slings and arrows.
With all that being said, I will now cut to the chase. For all those who complain about “destroying the original fabric”, I say you need to do some research. The only time a locomotive or other piece of equipment is 100% original fabric is when it is leaves the original manufacture’s doors. The first time the equipment comes into the owner’s shop for repairs, the item/s being replaced are no longer original. That means every changed out/renewed staybolt, side sheet, boiler course, wheelset, brake valve, paint job, etc. means the unit is no longer 100% original. After many shoppings, many locomotives had up to 75% (or more) of the “original fabric” replaced. Therefore, many pieces of equipment that escaped the scrapper have relatively little original fabric left. The only way to have an original fabric piece of equipment is to get it directly from the manufacturer and put it on display. If you use the don’t mess with the original fabric argument, the Strasburg Rail Road (along with many other organizations) should be put out of business for all their sins. Instead of questioning an organization’s historical morals, we should be applauding them for the good work they do to pass on to the younger generation what a steam locomotive was all about. You’re not going to get that when it is stuffed and mounted.

R L Musser

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"When you hear an A crack with the reverse lever hooked up just right, why, you wonder what anybody'd want to dieselize for". - C. E. Pond

Strasburg Rail Road Mechanical Department


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 Post subject: Re: Rio Grande Southern 20 update.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:47 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
Posts: 399
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Herr Musser hat recht (to use a phrase you might actually hear in Lancaster County.)

PRR E6s 4-4-2 460 was restored across the street from his shop. The engine was built in 1914 and operated through 1955, mostly in passenger service. In the late 1940's, 460 was selected by PRR to be one of three E6s engines to be overhauled for continued service on PRSL in South Jersey.

When RRPMA dismantled 460 for its restoration overhaul, they were surprised to find it had many parts from other E6s engines.

So.... Original fabric? The 460 has original E6s parts; they just weren't all built for 460.

You tell me.

Phil Mulligan


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 Post subject: Re: Rio Grande Southern 20 update.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:50 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:50 pm
Posts: 505
Jeff,

It was great to meet you last August when I had a few days in Colorado. You were marking out the striping on one of the GE NG diesels and getting 491 steamed up for that weekend's runs at the CRRM. Keep up the excellent work. I am among the many who are drooling over every update posted on RYPN or FB or wherever. RGS #20 is one of the most iconic Colorado narrow gauge locomotives to have survived and am glad to see her so close to coming back to life. Probably one of the more difficult NG restorations seeing as how thoroughly worn out she was when Linn started work on her many years ago.

It's great that we can all share our opinions on any given subject but the vitriol is not needed and doesn't help anyone or benefit any project. We can do better hear. Let's keep it civil and respectful. Lord knows we have much bigger actual problems facing our country today than "Original Fabric!" lol.

Sincerely,


Rob Gardner
ASR VP and 2100 Project Manager


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 Post subject: Re: Rio Grande Southern 20 update.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:12 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3698
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Frisco1522 wrote:
II have photos of Frisco 4-8-2 no. 1501 on delivery at St. Louis in 1923 and also photos of her when she was retired from revenue service.

I'm tired of listening to this whining drivel and like the suggestion of the other poster who suggested the individual taking on a project and following strictly the guidelines that he has established.

In doing so, he should post updates with photos so we can critique and make suggestions and whine about it.

PLEASE lets end this damned thread.


You got me thinking of some other locomotives.

Let's consider ATSF 3751, which went through more than one rebuilding and no longer looks at all like it did in 1927?

Santa Fe 3751 Facebook page:

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/ ... e=5F1B5DF3

Image

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/ ... e=5F19DA0A

Image



How about the Reading T1--which started out as a 2-8-0, and ended up as a 4-8-4? (Both photos from NortheastRailfan.net)

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_pr2010.jpg

Image

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_rdg2102c.jpg

Image

And C&O's L1 4-6-4, which started out as an F19 4-6-2?

By the way, she doesn't quite look like her real as-built appearance in the "before" photo. Compared with builder's photos, she has piping changes, lettering changes, and a different tender.

Initial image via Pinterest,

http://www.nkyviews.com/mason/mason466.jpg

Image

https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/11203

Image

The same engine, same number, as she has looked since a rebuilding around 1946, and a change in painting (from orange to yellow) around 1950.

Image

How much original fabric is left in any of these locomotives, or for that matter, was left in their scrapped sisters?


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 Post subject: Re: Rio Grande Southern 20 update.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:00 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 1824
Location: Strasburg, PA
Randolph R. Ruiz wrote:
A crucial distinction that some seem to breeze past, is that the work done on the USS Constitution is Replacement-In-Kind. While a tree cut down in 2020 will be different from one cut down in 1794, it is still wood, probably of the same species. They are not replacing the wood with a resin-based product, they aren't adding steel channels to the keel…
Thanks for reminding me of USS Constitution. Regarding what she is made of, well, actually…

Materials Used in USS Constitution

“DOUGLAS FIR GLUED LAMINATES, UNTREATED:
Whereas the original materials for deck, ceiling, and deck beams were specified to be "best heart pitch pine", today glue laminated Douglas Fir is used.
The Navy does not keep large stock piles of materials on hand. Given the time frame of the production schedule, the quantity and the size and dimension of the timbers needed, the use of natural timber was precluded. The time to procure, prepare, dry, and then dimension all needed spars would have exceeded the time of repair in dry dock. Production was kept on schedule by using timbers made of glued laminates that were purchased to nearly finished dimensions. Having material ordered from laminate materials assured consistent material quality, minimized waste and preparation time, and allowed the Repair to remain on schedule.”

“WHITE OAK GLUED LAMINATES, UNTREATED
TIMBERS
White oak is the principal wood for construction throughout the ship and is used as structural pieces for the spars. The Navy does not keep large stock piles of materials on hand. Given the time frame of the production schedule, the quantity and the size and dimension of the timbers needed, the use of natural timber was precluded. Production was kept on schedule by using timbers made of glued laminates that were purchased to nearly finished dimensions as well as being of proper moisture content. The time to procure, prepare, dry, and then dimension wood components would have exceeded the time of repair in dry dock. Having material ordered as laminate materials assured consistent material quality, minimized waste and preparation time, and allowed the Repair to remain on schedule

JUSTIFICATION FOR USING LAMINATES
The lack of solid material of sufficient quality, quantity, moisture content, dimensional size and material species has required the use of laminates.”

“STEEL
Today, steel -- galvanized, is the material of choice used for all fasteners above the water line of Constitution. This replaces what would have originally been wrought iron. Steel stock was purchased as stock bar material of the diameters required. Then the individual fasteners: bolts and drifts were fashioned and manufactured by NHC DET Boston. The piece was galvanized, hot dipped, as a final piece.
All steel stock was purchased within the Federal supply system.”

“STANDING RIGGING:
All rigging was replaced this repair period. A change was made in materials; polypropylene was removed and polyester was used as replacement material. After review and study, it was concluded that polyester would have better UV resistance than currently available polypropylene.”

“SAILS
Constitution will sail July 21, 1997, under limited conditions, as a salute to the Nation in celebration of her bicentennial celebration. Topsails, spanker, jib and flying jib will be set and Constitution will sail for the first time since 1881.
Synthetic material was selected, based on cost, weight, availability, intended longevity of the sail material.”

A history of the preservation of USS Constitution

“PRESERVED VS RESTORED
The Antique and Classic Boat Society (ACBS) established definitions of “preserved” and “restored” boats which the society uses when judging an antique or classic boat:

ACBS defines preserved boats as those containing at least 60% of their original deck and topsides material and is constructed using the same methods and materials as the original. Bottom replacement is expected in order for the boat to be serviceable but the method of replacement must duplicate the original….

For a boat to be considered restored, its owner must…provide photographic evidence of the existence of the original identifiable boat and of the various stages of the restoration demonstrating that the original boat was always together as a single entity…At no point should two boats exist – i.e. a pattern boat and the new boat even if the pattern boat is subsequently destroyed. Building a new boat using some wood from an old one will not qualify as a restoration. [https://acbs.org/acbs-boat-classifications-judging-classes/]

But ACBS concludes with the following, definitive, statement:
The amount of original wood in a restored boat is not determinative. For example, the USS Constitution has essentially none of its original wood but we believe no one would consider it a replica. It is Old Ironsides.

The U.S. Navy’s philosophy mirrors that of the Antique Classic Boat Society, the ship has always been Constitution and will always remain Constitution, regardless of how much or little 1790s materials exists in the ship’s structure."

“The jibboom that was removed from Constitution prior to the ship entering Dry Dock 1 in May, 2015, was manufactured in May, 2003, from laminated Douglas fir. It was refurbished in the 2007-2010 (floating) restoration and re-installed in 2010.”

Robby, with all due respect, go pound sand.

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"It was not easy to convince Allnutt. All his shop training had given him a profound prejudice against inexact work, experimental work, hit-or-miss work."
C. S. Forester

Strasburg Rail Road Mechanical Department


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 Post subject: Re: Rio Grande Southern 20 update.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:50 am 

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:07 pm
Posts: 602
Location: B'more Maryland
If you're part of an organization who's mission is to preserve history, you need to be doing that. That means that you stabilize and store your artifacts. The reason you exist is to make sure that those artifacts exist for future observation and study. You let the story be the story and don't insert yourself into it. Now, that's not always strictly possible but you should strive to get as close to it as possible. Note, this mission is NOT the only mission of most museums or groups.

If your mission is to preserve and educate on history, THEN it might make sense to start messing with artifacts. Obviously you have to have your own internal debate about the fate of any given artifact: is this more valuable to the cause as something used to demonstrate how it was used than as something to simply be observed. This is the place most railroad history groups find themselves in. For example, with the CRHS, we decided that the value of having a good looking Conrail caboose that people could interact with was far better than being able to show it in its current state (which resulted not only of its time on the railroad but ALSO its time in someone's back yard). Meanwhile, we're also not fixing any typos we find in our document collection with white out or "fixing" any incorrect forward looking statements in things we find.

If your mission is to run a railroad that sustains itself with old equipment, then the only reason you have to preserve original fabric is to ensure the continued consistency in the aesthetics and branding of your operation. Everything else you do toward historical accuracy is because you're "a good guy" doing future historians favors. It also means that if you need to modify equipment to make improvements (like adding continuous blowdowns), you should do it.

Most of the debate here is centered around the decisions for the second case above and people sure seem to get very attached to the decisions they've made in that case.


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 Post subject: Re: Rio Grande Southern 20 update.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:43 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:25 pm
Posts: 1922
From Heritage Rail Alliance Recommended Practices:

Quote:
Railway museums create categories of objects to determine which objects will be used, which will be stored or given special treatment due to condition, and how all objects in all categories will be used, stored, and cared for.

11. Railway museums must pay particular attention to objects that may be designated for operation. While safe, reliable performance must remain a primary concern, documentation and preservation of original materials, parts, or configuration should be undertaken and samples retained, in keeping with standard museum practice.

12. Restoration and maintenance practices are to be developed that differentiate the type of work performed on an object, based on its classification and use. Restoration serves several different preservation- or operation-related purposes, and is separate from maintenance.

13. Restoration work should take into consideration whether or not any alterations can be reversed at a later date. In order to maintain historical accuracy and authenticity of an item whose service life (along with repairs and modifications) spanned several years, any changes to appearance, structure, or removal/replacement of components should take into account reversibility.

14. Consider adopting the Riga Charter created by the European Federation of Museum and Tourist Railways, which provides for 12 articles of guidelines for restoration and operation of historic railway equipment.


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 Post subject: Re: Rio Grande Southern 20 update.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:32 am 

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:21 am
Posts: 411
Since nobody has offered an opinion on this thread (I'm JOKING!!) I'll put my two cents in. History Museums, and especially Railroad Museums, are struggling to survive in today's world. There is a lot of competition for folks' time and money, and the old iron just ain't at the top of the list, no matter if it's trains, planes, or automobiles. If any of this old iron has a chance to survive with any percent of it's old or new fabric, the institution that owns and displays it must survive financially. If that doesn't happen, this whole discussion is a moot point. The old iron will head to the scrapper, and we have already seen this happen.......Indiana RR Museum??

Therefore, the old iron must be sexy enough to draw the public's attention, and the best way to do that is to make it live. Live by running, smoking, tooting, and clanking. There is much more sensory experience for the public, and more for the kids to see and learn from, and more to entice the wallets to open up.


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 Post subject: Re: Rio Grande Southern 20 update.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:16 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:21 pm
Posts: 433
Location: Danbury, CT
I can suggest another maritime example. The whaling bark Charles W. Morgan of Mystic Seaport in Connecticut. I’ve worked there for 13 years. She is the only remaining sail driven wooden whaling ship. She’s seen several restorations over the years. In 2008, she was hauled for a necessary major restoration of areas below the waterline that hadn’t been touched since her building in 1841. She spent 5 years in restoration and ultimately resulted in her sailing for the first time since 1921. Components were replaced with correct materials and period methods using period tools wherever possible. The Navy shared a cache of timber recently discovered in a bog during a construction project. They retained the rest for Constituton. Oak knees were harvested from hurricane felled trees on the gulf coast. New metal fittings were hand forged in our shipsmith shop as well. A new suit of sails were made, some entirely by hand. We sailed her clear up to Boston and back. In Boston, we tied up aft of USS Constitution. I had the privilege of working on her rigging and sailing her as a crew member. All of the modern equipment required for the voyage was installed in a manner that would allow its removal without significant impact or alteration. The trip gave us a valuable information and experience that helps us to better interpret the ship to visitors.

Star of India and Elissa are also worthy of mention.

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