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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:29 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2578
Location: Northern Illinois
That's not true that "all" companies contracted with Pullman. First off, the RRs didn't "rent" the cars, they contracted for the service. Pullman supplied the cars and bedding, and maintenance thereof, crews, and the ticketing and reservation system. There were some roads that ran their own sleepers; Canadian Pacific had only one Pullman line, and that was an international service joint with CP subsidiary Soo Line. The Soo also ran other light traffic lines with their own cars and crews, as did the Milwaukee Road. However, as time went on both roads realized the advantages Pullman offered; new cars as tastes in accommodations changed without the expense of actually buying the cars, and Pullman's ability to shift extra cars to follow the tourist seasons. The same cars that worked the Florida trains during the winter could be found on a variety of northern roads during the summer. Both roads turned all their premier trains over to Pullman, while keeping marginal routes that likely Pullman didn't want.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:59 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:51 pm
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What marginal routes?
I'm curios if the companies that did operated theyr own sleeping cars also used Black porters or did they used other races? Did they payed they porters better?
I think I put this question before, but does anyone haves pictures of the olds "Olympian" of "Milwaukee Road". I sayed olds, because they say in 1927 the train was reequyped: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympian_ ... a_1915.JPG
I could only find just some pics in the past, and only with the outside of the train.

This "Santa Fe" heavyweight cars seem to have larger windows, so in stad of smaller 2 windows/row, a bigger window/row: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpjTcsQcetw
The end of a era... They should make a movie (not film) about the old days... It could be a romance. No movie like that can be made today, because the colours, sound recording, feelings of those days are gone. It was bad for many people, true, but on the other hand you could made some nice things.

I wonder why in U.S.A. steam locomotives where called a "she" (the exception of she beeing GG 1, which where electric locomotives) and the Diesel and electric "he".

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:05 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
Posts: 527
Location: Philadelphia, PA
For the most part, the two major Canadian roads (CPR and CNR) owned and operated their own sleeping cars, with the major exception that sleepers to and from the USA were owned and operated by the Pullman Company. After 1945 (LW) and 1948 (HW), sleepers were railroad-owned (including CNR) but Pullman-operated. Most Canadian porters (CPR or CNR) were Black but they could be either Black or White.

Sleepers that ran through the USA between Canadian points, such as CPR's Atlantic Limited, were Canadian-staffed. Sleepers that ran through Canada between USA points, such as NYC's Wolverine, were USA-staffed.

ATSF's heavyweight coaches had different construction from the Pullman-style cars. They had heavy side sills which took some of the weight-bearing. This allowed the wide windows.

Phil Mulligan


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:35 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2578
Location: Northern Illinois
djl wrote:
What marginal routes?

Can't speak to the Milwaukee, but I'm pretty conversant with the Soo Line. After WWII the routes contracted to Pullman were:
Chicago - Duluth
Chicago - St. Paul
Chicago - Vancouver in conjunction with CPR, cut back to Minneapolis - Vancouver in 1948
St. Paul - Winnipeg, Soo run after 1956

The "marginal routes" that were company run:
Chicago - Ashland
Minneapolis - Sault Ste. Marie

The CPR owned Duluth South Shore & Atlantic which ran Duluth - Sault Ste. Marie used company owned sleepers after they stopped sending sleepers to Detroit on the car ferry across the Straits of Mackinac early in the last century.

djl wrote:
I'm curios if the companies that did operated theyr own sleeping cars also used Black porters or did they used other races? Did they payed they porters better?


Well, the photos I've seen of the cafe car stewards were white; I suspect the sleeping car porters were also. The Soo tended to hire local, and there wasn't much of a black community in Minneapolis at the time. The Soo was out of the passenger business by the mid sixties with a few minor exceptions, and those did not include sleepers.

As to pay, I can't say.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:22 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:51 pm
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There where radios on the trains, but there where ever trains in which records or audio tapes to be played?

As for pre '30's "Milwaukee Road" trains, I found something on the links: https://www.historylink.org/file/10999

https://milwaukeeroadarchives.com/Elect ... 20Page.htm

It had to be something in the steam locomotives era (I like steam locomotives), when you had smoke sometimes coming to the cars to have such clean ride on parts of the route.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:11 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:51 pm
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But how it was with the acces at the dining car? On all trains all passangers cu enter the dining car without paying seat reservation or at some trains coach passanger had to pay an reservation fare in order to eat?

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:53 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:01 pm
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Location: SouthEast Pennsylvania
Some trains did have both Coach and 1st Class railroad operated Dining Cars. But, Pullman had very early gotten out of the Dining Car business, even though continuing to operate Buffet, Bar, Lounge, and similar cars for their own patrons that did require payment of 1st Class fares.
One of the members of this Group told of riding in the late 1960s on a railroad that broke from tradition and abolished 1st Class fares, instead charging much more for Parlor and Sleeping car space in addition to the ordinary Coach fare. He wanted to buy something in the Pullman Buffet and Lounge car, but was riding in the coaches. He argued with the attendant that he wasn't occupying revenue Pullman space, and shouldn't have to pay an extra charge to buy food or drink. He won the argument that time, but didn't know if he was correct.


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:04 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:51 pm
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Do you know any trains that did operated dining and buffet cars for 2nd class included?
So if you wanted to go to the "Pullman" dining or buffet cars and you had a coach ticket you had to buy a 1st class ticket or just some extra 1st class fare for the seat in the dinner?

Slumbercoach was considered 1st class or 2nd class?

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:54 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:54 am
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Location: Tucson, Arizona
djl wrote:
I'm curios if the employees did smoked on the luggage car or that car was safe from smoking?
Why all companies rented sleeping cars from "Pullman" an none of the tryed to use they own owned sleeping cars.
Untill when "Harvey" operated dining cars?


On trains that had a combine, the crew would often smoke there (against regulations). In many situations (particularly in the South), the combine was also the space allocated for colored passengers. One chief complaint regarding the combines (aside from the safety of the cars themselves) was trainmen taking up seats and smoking in the presence of colored women and children.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:27 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
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Location: Philadelphia, PA
A couple of friends were riding in the Slumbercoach on B&O's National Limited. They went to the Pullman sleeper-lounge-observation car on the rear for a beverage and the Pullman Conductor (who had lifted their space tickets) diplomatically pointed out to them that Slumbercoach passengers belonged in the Coach lounge car in the front. They noted that the Slumbercoach was Pullman-operatetd, that the Pullman lounge was relatively empty and they were providing the Pullman Company with revenue. The Pullman Conductor thought about it and told them to enjoy the ride.

During the off-seeason, the Santa Fe combined the all-Pullman Super Chief with the all-Coach El Capitan, but each had its own dining and lounge cars. In the early 1960's, during the peak Summer season, El Capitan was using all the High-Level Coaches it could get and still had demand for coach space. Solution was to add coach space to the Super Chief, which was a separate train. In July, 1965, there were 5 conventional height leg-rest Chair Cars with separate dining and lounge cars in the Super Chief section of 17-18.

Phil Mulligan


Last edited by EJ Berry on Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:33 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:51 pm
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To be honest, I was also curios if 1st class passangers could meet with 2nd class passangers on dining and buffet and bar cars.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:05 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
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Location: Philadelphia, PA
Of course. Most trains had one dining car and one lounge car so everybody used the same cars. Often they were between the Coach and Pullman portions of the train and the Dining Car Steward could tell by which end patrons used whether they were in the coaches or Pullmans.

In the USA we used Standard and Coach, or First Class and Coach. 2nd Class is not a popular term in North America, unless you're a US Navy Petty Officer.

Phil Mulligan


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:20 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:51 pm
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Oh, private 2nd class. I know that term. In Europe trains are different from U.S.A., for eg 1st class dosen't haves necesarly sleeping accomodations, 2nd class could contain and in some cases may contain compartments (Europ acception).
But still dind't get the whole image: if you where a coach passanger and the dining, buffet, bar car was for 1st class only, you could get there only if you payed the seat reservation for that car or you had to upgrade the whole ticket, meaning to travel for the rest of journey on the "Pullman" syde.
2 dining cars probably where on trains with more passanger or long travel (2 days or more).

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:14 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
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Location: Philadelphia, PA
Some USA Western trains had two food service cars, with differing amenities, but Coach and Pullman passengers could eat in either car. For example the Great Northerrn Empire builder had both a "Ranch Car" and a full Dining Car. The Ranch car served less expensive meals and did not have tablecloths and was placed among the coaches in the train and was aimed at the cost-conscious Coach traveller. The Dining Car was next to the Pullman Cars and served more expensive meals on tablecloths.

On the other hand, Seaboard's Silver Meteor carried two Dining Cars. Between New York and Wildwood FL, one was forward, amid the Pullmans, and the other was back with the Coaches. At Wildwood the Southbound train split for the East Coast of Florida, or the West Coast. The Miami Diner was between the Miami Pullmans and Coaches, while the St. Petersburg Diner was ahead of both the West Coast Pullmans and Coaches.

When the Super Chief had the Summertime conventional coaches or was combined with El Capitan in the off-season, passengers were expected to eat in their own diners. In any of the cars, you got Fred Harvey meals.

Phil Mulligan


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:58 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:51 pm
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But there was ever a passanger car with all kind of accomodation like drawn here: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lVV2zRN3KP8/T ... 3-lrg.jpeg
or it just an artist's fantasy?

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