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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:32 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
Posts: 567
Location: Philadelphia, PA
The car in the illustration is a California Zephyr dome-lounge-sleeper-observation car. Six of these cars were built by Budd for the train in 1948-1949 with a seventh car added in 1952. What is posted looks like a full-page magazine ad for the train.

The California Zephyr operated between Chicago and Oakland CA from 1949 to 1970 via CB&Q-Denver-D&RGW-Salt Lake City-WP. There was a ferry (early) or bus (later) connection to San Francisco. Six consists were needed for daily service.

The artwork is accurate to the cars as built.

Amtrak currently operates a California Zephyr with Superliner equipment and going over Donner Pass on the ex-SP rather than through Beckwourth Pass and the Feather River Canyon used by the original train.

Phil Mulligan


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:41 am 

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:06 pm
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Location: Thomaston & White Plains
Trust me, it was no fantasy. It was real, and amazing in so many ways, and still mourned and fondly remembered, fifty years after it's last run.

Howard P.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:46 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:51 pm
Posts: 92
Did you ever had the chance to ride one?
I will look to see what accomodation it had.
Man, 6 train sets...
This was one sleeping car... http://www.wataugavalleynrhs.org/crescentharbor.php

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:04 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
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Location: Philadelphia, PA
I did get to ride the original CZ, in a dome coach, all the way through from Chicago to Oakland. Sounds like Howard P. rode it, too. The Rio Grande used the term, "through the Rockies, not around them." and that describes the CZ route. The WP segment of the through train was discontinued in 1970, before Amtrak. CB&Q/BN and D&RGW continued with a triweekly service until Amtrak.

When Amtrak came in, D&RGW opted out. They owned one CZ consist and operated it independently as the Rio Grande Zephyr between Denver and Salt Lake City, one day going West, one day going East and no train on Wednesday. I rode the RGZ many times including in Silver Sky, D&RGW's dome observation car. Sleeper space in the car as built was 3 Double Bedrooms, 1 Drawing Room.

The 6 consists require an understanding of North American distances. In 1962, a CZ left Chicago 3.10 PM Sunday, arrived Denver 8.20 AM Monday, Salt Lake City 10.00 PM Monday and Oakland 3.10 PM Tuesday. Returning, the CZ left Oakland 10.45 AM Wednesday, Arrived Salt Lake City 5.40 AM Thursday, Denver 7.20 PM Thursday and Chicago 2.05 PM Friday. It was not possible to turn and clean the train in 1 hour and 5 minutes, so this consist left Chicago for Oakland at 3.10 PM Saturday. It took 6 days to make the cycle; hence the 6 consists to protect a daily service.

The car in djl's latest posting, Crescent Harbor, is a 1 Master Room, 2 Drawing Room Buffet Lounge, one of 4 such cars built by Pullman-Standard in 1949 for the Southern Railway's Crescent Limited between New York and New Orleans. 1949 route was PRR-Washington-SOU-Atlanta-A&WP-West Point-WofA-Montgomery-L&N. Southern also opted out of Amtrak in 1971 and ran the Southern Crescent between Washington and New Orleans over its own route, with through cars over Amtrak from New York. The lounge cars operated only between Washington and Atlanta. In 1979 Southern opted into Amtrak and Amtrak substituted its own cars on the Crescent.

Phil Mulligan


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:17 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:51 pm
Posts: 92
I realized it was because of the distances. But before you mentioned it, never thought you needed more then 2 trainsets, trough it was obvious.
Why did "Denver and Rio Grande Western Railorad" stoped operating the train up to California in 1971? Did they operated those combine cars up untill 1983? It's good they did operated the train even after "Amtrack".
"Southern Crescent" did still operated New York City - New Orleans starting with 1971?
But how come "Southern Railway" didn't joined "Amtrack"?

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:18 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:01 pm
Posts: 1565
Location: SouthEast Pennsylvania
One of Southern Railway's reasons for not joining Amtrak was the expense. The amount a road was to pay was based on its passenger service about 2 years before Amtrak. But Southern had discontinued all but 3 of its passenger trains less than 2 years before Amtrak. They thought that the future loses were less that the cost of joining.
Western Pacific was the road that stopped operating its portion of the California Zephyr in March, 1970.
Via Rail Canada still has similar dome - lounge - sleeper - observation cars, although when they restart using them in December, 2020 after the virus shut down, passengers won't be allowed in them.


Last edited by JimBoylan on Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:33 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
Posts: 567
Location: Philadelphia, PA
The djl post above refers to "combine cars." In North America, the term "combine" generally refers to combination baggage-coach cars and not to any other floorplan.

D&RGW had 2 lightweight baggage-dormitory-chair cars which had been ordered by C&O from Pullman-Standard as baggage-chair cars. They were reconfigured at P-S and delivered to D&RGW in 1950. However, thay ran in the Prospector, overnight between Denver and Salt Lake City, and not in the CZ.

One of these cars was in the post-CZ consist of the Rio Grande Zephyr and operated in that capacity until 1983.

D&RGW did not operate the CZ West of Salt Lake City. The train was run by a consortium of 3 railroads and the Western Pacific operated the train from Salt Lake City to Oakland. WP had wanted out of the passenger business claiming they lost money even with a full train. They finally got their way in 1970 and the CB&Q/BN and D&RGW trains went to three trips a week, connecting with SP's City of San Francisco at Ogden for Oakland.

Amtrak actually had a train called the Southern Crescent operating from Boston to Washington but the Boston consist was entirely NEC cars going no further South than Washington. Sunnyside Yard in NY made up a consist of Southern Railway and Amtrak cars that would go through to the Southern at Washington. Also, three days a week there was an Amtrak sleeper for Los Angeles going to the Sunset Limited at New Orleans. These required a GG1 or E60 with a working steam generator and the consist from Boston was coupled behind them, with a power car for HEP on the rear in Amfleet days.

Going North the WAS-NY section ran extra with an ex-PRR Congo Parlor Car added for food service. Thus there was no named Southern Crescent North of Washington but there were through cars to New York. The Parlor Chairs were not sold but could be occupied by through passengers from Southern cars that were terminating at Washington.

Phil Mulligan


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:47 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:51 pm
Posts: 92
Then I will use the term combination car. A combination car like sleeping + dome + observation wasn't disturbing for the sleeping portion passangers? I guess some poeple wanted to go the observation side even after hours 21-23 (9-11 P.M.). Or after a certain hour the observation side was closed?
So if you took the "Southern Crescent" operated by "Southern Railway", starting with 1970-1971 you had to take another train between Washington D.C. and N.Y.C. or the "Crescent Limited" went to N.Y.C. even after 1970. Sorry, I'm still confuzed.
Well, I thought that if you wanted to take the train from New York City to California you had to go via Chicago. But seems via South is a shorter route.
I wonder how it was to ride 2-3 days with a train (even with air condition) without taking a shower. And most cars where smoking cars...

Besides the 2 companies arleady mentioned, "Rock Island Line" also kept it's long distance passanger trains. But all felt unfourtenley... but the history will remember them for the effort.

On this page: https://phoebesnowco.com/blogs/
I found this image: https://phoebesnowco.com/wp-content/upl ... car-ad.jpg
Did "New Heaven" used both lightweight and hevyweight cars on the same train?

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:32 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:01 pm
Posts: 1565
Location: SouthEast Pennsylvania
Some of the Southern Railway cars from the Southern Crescent train did run through on Amtrak to New York City.
A very few sleeping cars had showers in Master Rooms or Drawing Rooms. Southern Railway had some of those cars with showers in the Master Rooms, and used them in the Southern Crescent South of Washington. I don't think those particular cars ran through to New York.
While through sleeping cars between New York and California via Chicago started about 1947 and stopped running about 10 years before Amtrak, Amtrak did run through sleeping cars and coaches between New York and Los Angeles via St. Louis and Kansas City later in the 1970s. Of course, for a long time before, pigs could ride through Chicago without changing cars.


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:11 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
Posts: 567
Location: Philadelphia, PA
In the Amtrak era, cars (both coach and sleeper) ran through from New York to Atlanta or New Orleans. These were both Amtrak and Southern cars. Three days a week, one Amtrak sleeper ran through from New York to Los Angeles via New Orleans. They were in an Amtrak train North of Washington, Southern Railway South of Washington, and the LA car was in Amtrak's Sunset Limited West of New Orleans. The passengers did not have to change cars. Historically, the PRR moved many cars from NY to points South of Washington in its own NEC trains. The named train did not go through but the cars did. The passengers did not have to change cars.

In the 1950's there were through sleeping cars between New York or Washington and either Los Angeles or Oakland (for San Francisco). They all ran via Chicago. In the 1970's, Amtrak had a through sleeper from New York to Los Angeles via St. Louis and Kansas City.

Pleases don't use the term "combination car" as that is also usually associated with a baggage-coach combination. I suggest you refer to the car by what it is: baggage-mail, sleeper-lounge, dome-sleeper-lounge, diner-lounge, etc.

As to doing without a shower, I would lock the door on a Roomette, pull down the shade and wash myself using the washcloths and towels provided.

Phil Mulligan


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:35 am 

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:06 pm
Posts: 2330
Location: Thomaston & White Plains
djl:

"On this page: https://phoebesnowco.com/blogs/
I found this image: https://phoebesnowco.com/wp-content/upl ... car-ad.jpg
Did "New Heaven" used both lightweight and hevyweight cars on the same train?"

What you're seeing is a late 1930s vintage ad poster by the New Haven Railroad, showing the new lightweight streamlined coaches and older heavyweight dining cars, with modernized interiors (pictured with happy models/passengers). New Haven did not have any streamlined dining cars until 1948, when fluted stainless-steel (over carbon steel structures) cars arrived.

The coaches depicted are noteworthy, being the first North American production streamlined cars (50 coaches, Dec 1934-Feb 1935), and they were the first full-size passenger cars to be air-conditioned as built. The New Haven eventually had 200 of these (last ones built were 1938), and other railroads had them as well: Boston & Maine, Bangor & Aroostook, even Seaboard Air Line. They were a real New England design, built by Pullman-Standard at the Osgood Bradley plant in Worcester, Ma. And, duplicated in model form by A.C. Gilbert Co. of New Haven, Conn., for their line of "American Flyer" trains.

Howard P.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:47 pm 

Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:40 pm
Posts: 301
Location: San Francisco, CA
DJL,

I am an avid post card collector; there is a set of Overland Limited post cards from about 1912. You cna look for them on cardcow,com. They are the earliest interior views I know of.
I also have a set of 1920s cards from the Rock Island's Golden State Limited which show a shower. Dad in bathrobe, son in towel.

Back in the late 1990s, I took the Amtrak Coast Starlight down from Seattle. Along the way, the Conductor got on the public address system to announce good new and bad news. A freight train was de-railed and we would detour off the SP rails to the WP Rails through the Feather River Canyon. The passengers applauded the decision!

Another time I rode the California Zephyr from Denver to Emeryville (San Francisco). Even in Amtrak equipment, it is a great train ride, as I mentioned above.
Thank you for your questions; I learned a lot from your questions. I want to do a long-distance train ride when the covid-19 business is over.

Ted Miles


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:43 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:51 pm
Posts: 92
Thank you very much, sir! I will take a look.
"Orinetal Limited" by "Great Northen" had showers abroad the train. This is one rail company that you find quite a lot piece of information. I wonder how come. And I like James J. Hill, because he was a daring man.
Most people in Europe aren't instrested in theyr own trains, I'm intrested in U.S.A. trains too.
But why people where delighted by the detour? The route was more spectacular?


How much did a New York City - Los Angeles/San Francisco trip
by train took when "Amtrack" made a direct route? More then 4 days?
You could wash in that basin, but it wasn't like a shower. But did that basin was like a sink, meaning water could go down the drain or it was some kind of pool?

Why did "New Heaven"
added later streamlined/lightweight dining cars?
In the movie "Strangers on a train" we can see some "New Heaven" cars (the ones with long windows, that had a rod in the middle). But in the movie there are also apearing some old cars... they where from the same railroad company or from others?
Since Bruno and Guy went to a "Pullman" acomodation on Bruno's "compartment". This made me think that U.S.A. had compartments (Europe and Australian acception) on standard passanger cars.

This kind of seat resembles with the seats from Europeanen sleeping cars: https://www.laparks.org/traveltown/pass ... ters-point

This is one intresting heaveyweight car: https://www.alamy.com/american-engineer ... d0%26pl%3d
Why? Heavyweight, but single piece window, not double.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:49 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
Posts: 567
Location: Philadelphia, PA
A number of premier heavyewight trains before 1930 had baggage-lounge cars with a barber shop and a shower bath. That's ONE shower-bath for the whole train. The 1924 edition of the GN Oriental Limited had a men's shower bath in the Tourist Pullman and a ladies' shower bath in the observation car.

As to the New Haven (not "New Heaven"), they didn't buy any Dining cars with their prewar (1937-1938) lightweight cars and only 5 Grill cars. Their postwar order included 15 Grill cars and 10 Dining cars. Presumably, they wanted their Dining cars to match their new chair cars.

When Strangers on a Train was filmed in 1951, NH was operating heavyweight, prewar and postwar lightweight cars as well as heavyweight MU cars (their lightweight MU cars would not come until 1954). There may also have been through cars from PRR via Penn Station and the Hell Gate Bridge. Any of these may have been in the movie.

The car in Traveltown is a US 4-4-2 sleeper built in 1941 with 4 double bedrooms, 4 compartments and 2 drawing rooms. The room in the photo could be either a Double Bedroom or a Compartment.

US railroads did have compartments, but they were overnight rooms with two beds in sleeping cars. NH had sleepers with compartments, but they were used for overnight travel between New York and Boston, or Washington and Montreal, among other destinations.

Phil Mulligan


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:17 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:51 pm
Posts: 92
Well, at least you could take a shower.
But how much a trip from New York from Boston took in the days?

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