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 Post subject: Re: 1920s Baldwin built 4-4-0 Americans for US customers?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:41 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
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Location: southeastern USA
Looks like a trailing truck under the second one. Ugly without a shroud, too...... much like some politicians.

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 Post subject: Re: 1920s Baldwin built 4-4-0 Americans for US customers?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:14 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:47 pm
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Location: Arizona
Second one is a Milwaukee Road Hiawatha 4-4-2 before the streamlining was applied.


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 Post subject: Re: 1920s Baldwin built 4-4-0 Americans for US customers?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:14 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 1865
Location: Strasburg, PA
bbunge wrote:
It had escaped me for a long time that the civil war era 4-4-0's had rigid pony wheels.
PRR #1223 has a rigid lead truck, and flanges on all wheels, in 1905. go figure.

I'm dumb struck over the Dayton-Goose Creek RR #104. I just can't imagine the rationalization that took place in the RR's offices that justified ordering an engine with 13,770 lb. of tractive effort in 1921. It must have been a very level railroad.

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 Post subject: Re: 1920s Baldwin built 4-4-0 Americans for US customers?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:12 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
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Kelly Anderson wrote:
bbunge wrote:

I'm dumb struck over the Dayton-Goose Creek RR #104. I just can't imagine the rationalization that took place in the RR's offices that justified ordering an engine with 13,770 lb. of tractive effort in 1921. It must have been a very level railroad.


Kelly -

I can understand why the Dayton-Goose Creek Railroad purchased a 4-4-0 with just 13,770 lbs of tractive effort, IF the locomotive could do the job! I mentioned Frisco 4-4-0's earlier in this thread. In 1928, SLSF took two early 1900's built American's and rebuilt them as oil burners with superheaters, feedwater heaters and front-end throttles. They replaced 4-6-0's in light passenger service, doing the work with great regularity and showing a marked economy in fuel consumption. The railroad was so pleased, that they rebuilt four additional 4-4-0's in 1929. These engines remained in service at least into the late 1940's and right up until the start of dieselization of the railroad. This info from Lloyd E. Stagner's book, "Steam Locomotives of the Frisco Line".

Les


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 Post subject: Re: 1920s Baldwin built 4-4-0 Americans for US customers?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:47 pm 

Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:17 pm
Posts: 87
that's interesting with the Frisco 4-4-0s. Odd they didn't choose to rebuild and modernize 4-6-0s.
I've not seen a photo of a Frisco 4-4-0 with a FWH though.


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 Post subject: Re: 1920s Baldwin built 4-4-0 Americans for US customers?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:01 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:47 pm
Posts: 130
Location: Arizona
Kelly Anderson wrote:
bbunge wrote:
It had escaped me for a long time that the civil war era 4-4-0's had rigid pony wheels.
PRR #1223 has a rigid lead truck, and flanges on all wheels, in 1905. go figure.

I'm dumb struck over the Dayton-Goose Creek RR #104. I just can't imagine the rationalization that took place in the RR's offices that justified ordering an engine with 13,770 lb. of tractive effort in 1921. It must have been a very level railroad.


The Dayton-Goose Creek ran on the Texas Gulf Coast east of Houston. It's about as flat as flat gets down there.

Ya gotta love a modern superheated, piston valve 4-4-0 with a Vandy Tank!!!


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 Post subject: Re: 1920s Baldwin built 4-4-0 Americans for US customers?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:40 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:01 pm
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Location: SouthEast Pennsylvania
Even later in the 1920s, Missouri Pacific RR officers were wondering why their subsidiary, the Houston North Shore RR, which also ran to Goose Creek, was electrifying as an interurban trolley line. It even acquired some cars from other MP owned electric interurban lines that had been abandoned just before that time.


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 Post subject: Re: 1920s Baldwin built 4-4-0 Americans for US customers?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:32 pm 

Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:58 am
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That Dayton-Goose Creek locomotive is what I would call "handsome."

It is a shame that a Texas museum can't get the SA&AP engine back to Texas.


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 Post subject: Re: 1920s Baldwin built 4-4-0 Americans for US customers?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:50 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
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Purdue66 wrote:

It is a shame that a Texas museum can't get the SA&AP engine back to Texas.


The Gulf & Ohio System's "Three Rivers Rambler" seems to be making decent progress in its efforts to restore SA&AP # 60 (Texas & New Orleans #220) back to active service.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: 1920s Baldwin built 4-4-0 Americans for US customers?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:48 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 1309
I'm pretty sure if you look a little further you will find pictures of Lackawanna 4-4-0s with dramatic streamlining 'wings'. (Otto Kuhler got himself in trouble one day when one of the Lackawanna guys proudly showed off one of the engines with those wings, and Kuhler started peering up under the running boards -- when asked why, he said 'to see what made them flap...' Of course, for the 'ultimate' 4-4-0 you might have to go back almost to the origin of the wheel arrangement, and look at Calthrop's patent 49,227 ( designed as I recall from his experience at Harvard with racing shells)... there is now a video about it here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry54IG972LI

Blount saved one of the technically ultimate 4-4-0s, 'Repton' of the Schools class, at Steamtown, one of his most significant 'saves'. It was later repatriated to an enthusiast group.

If I remember correctly, didn't Beebe note in one of his books that the 'last' new-built 4-4-0 was built circa 1928 and in service in the Southeast?

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 Post subject: Re: 1920s Baldwin built 4-4-0 Americans for US customers?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:14 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:08 am
Posts: 37
Location: Severna Park, MD
Quick question, and apologies for the thread wander...

When did lead trucks become standardly non-rigid in locomotive design? Presumably when wheelbases became too long to properly navigate curvature... but, for example, does an Atlantic (perhaps like 7002) have a rigid lead truck?

I'm fairly sure that a ten-wheeler (G5, for example) has a flexible lead truck (albeit that's a comparatively modern 4-6-0 design.)

Just curious if anyone has any insight or opinion.

Thanks,
Joe


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 Post subject: Re: 1920s Baldwin built 4-4-0 Americans for US customers?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:46 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 1865
Location: Strasburg, PA
joecomer wrote:
When did lead trucks become standardly non-rigid in locomotive design? Presumably when wheelbases became too long to properly navigate curvature... but, for example, does an Atlantic (perhaps like 7002) have a rigid lead truck?

I'm fairly sure that a ten-wheeler (G5, for example) has a flexible lead truck (albeit that's a comparatively modern 4-6-0 design.)
Per Jack White's book, the swing link lead truck was patented in 1862, and widely accepted by the 1870's. He goes on to say that, "a number of mechanics clung to the stationary bolster believing it to be ... cheaper to build..." "Cheaper to build", that explains PRR's still using it.

#1223 is the only 20th century engine that I recall ever seeing with a rigid lead truck, and it is safe to say that swing motion equipped lead trucks were very much standard by 1890 to 1900. Can anyone answer if #98 on the W&W has a swing motion lead truck? Not too many other 4-4-0's out running these days.

From there, we could go deeper into the weeds and talk about two pin swing links vs. three pin swing links. While most lead trucks are equipped with three pin swing or "heart" links, two pin links seem prevalent on narrow gauge engines (possibly due to lack of room). I know that SP #1744 has two pin swing links in her lead truck, perhaps her age, dating from 1901, explains that.

Attachment:
20180201_134249.jpg
20180201_134249.jpg [ 207.4 KiB | Viewed 409 times ]
Freshly case hardened heart links for FEC #148.

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"It was not easy to convince Allnutt. All his shop training had given him a profound prejudice against inexact work, experimental work, hit-or-miss work."
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 Post subject: Re: 1920s Baldwin built 4-4-0 Americans for US customers?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:49 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:08 am
Posts: 37
Location: Severna Park, MD
Thanks very much, Kelly! Very interesting topic and "... "Cheaper to build", that explains PRR's still using it." Ha!! ;) Standard Railroad of the World, right? :)

Thanks for the pictures.

Yeah, I'd be interested to hear if 98 has one has well. Maybe Alco (?) was up to better standards at the time of her build.


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 Post subject: Re: 1920s Baldwin built 4-4-0 Americans for US customers?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:39 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 1865
Location: Strasburg, PA
joecomer wrote:
Standard Railroad of the World, right? :)
Right. You just have to remember that every other railroad was a Premium Railroad of the World...

Here's to the people who built an I1s Decopod with 30.5" x 32" cylinders and 70' of grate area, with no power reverse, no stoker, and a swinging firedoor...

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"It was not easy to convince Allnutt. All his shop training had given him a profound prejudice against inexact work, experimental work, hit-or-miss work."
C. S. Forester

Strasburg Rail Road Mechanical Department


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 Post subject: Re: 1920s Baldwin built 4-4-0 Americans for US customers?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:50 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:08 am
Posts: 37
Location: Severna Park, MD
LOL! ;)


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