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 Post subject: 1920s Baldwin built 4-4-0 Americans for US customers?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:20 am 

Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:29 am
Posts: 44
Are there any made? If yes are there some around? Look below and find out.

When we think of the famous 4-4-0 Americans we go from before Civil War to the late 1890s with ~25.000 made.

Long gone for mainline freight service and outdated by the early 1900s for passenger service with new Atlantics and Pacifics coming in.

There was a couple of orders 1900-1910 until the surprise order for 15 modern 4-4-0 by Southern Pacific in 1911
with Walschaerts, Piston Valves and Vanderbilt tenders, then superheated and 210psi!

Who thinking that was the show - failed. In the 1920s several more ordered and made by Baldwin. All superheated, piston valves,
walschaert valve gear. One with vanderbilt tender. Imagine one with power reverse!

Here I break down the last "modern" 4-4-0 Americans std. gauge made for US customers in the 1920s (actually I start august 1919)
by Baldwin:

*8-24-C,221 Red River & Gulf RR #104 - LA -1919*
8-24-C,222 Dayton-Goose Creek RR #104 - TX -1921

8-28-C,939 San Antonio & Aransas Pass RR #70 - TX - 1924
8-28-C,940 San Antonio & Aransas Pass RR #71 - TX - 1924
8-28-C,941 San Antonio & Aransas Pass RR #72 - TX - 1924
8-28-C,942 San Antonio & Aransas Pass RR #73 - TX - 1924
8-28-C,943 San Antonio & Aransas Pass RR #74 - TX - 1924
8-28-C,944 Bonhomie & Hattiesburg Southern RR #200 - MS - 1925

*8-30-C,700 San Antonio & Aransas Pass RR #60 - TX - 1922*
8-30-C,701 San Antonio & Aransas Pass RR #61 - TX - 1922
8-30-C,702 San Antonio & Aransas Pass RR #62 - TX - 1922
8-30-C,703 San Antonio & Aransas Pass RR #63 - TX - 1922
8-30-C,710 Chicago & Illinois Midland RR #500 - IL - 1927
8-30-C,711 Chicago & Illinois Midland RR #501 - IL - 1927
8-30-C,712 Chicago & Illinois Midland RR #502 - IL - 1928

8-34-C,147 Cornwall RR #14 - PA - 1924

*survived until today
both served Paulson Spence's Louisiana Eastern
then in Stone Mountain Park
now
https://www.train-museum.org/2019/08/02 ... s-in-2019/
https://www.threeriversrambler.com/no-60/

See below the pics and specs from one in every class.

Honorable mention, in the same time period they made 2 "old" style saturated, slide valve, stephenson valve gear models to suit the
existing fleet of respective owners with matching locomotives:
8-28-C,938 Union Transportation (Pennsylvania & Atlantic RR) #7 - PA - 1919
8-32-C,144 Lake Erie, Franklin & Clarion RR #97 - PA - 1920


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 Post subject: Re: 1920s Baldwin built 4-4-0 Americans for US customers?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:34 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:41 am
Posts: 5
Location: Northeast PA
From my understanding the Philadelphia and Reading had end cab 4-4-0s, wooten firebox and power reverse, built sometime around 1915. I can’t tell you how long they lasted but they existed. Class D11 I think?


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 Post subject: Re: 1920s Baldwin built 4-4-0 Americans for US customers?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:59 am 

Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:29 am
Posts: 44
The Philadelphia & Reading D11s made in 1914. 10 numbered 410-419. I have no idea how long they last.
They were out if my scope because they are hard to find in Baldwin records.
Believe it or not that 10 are the only ones in class 8-36-C ever built by Baldwin. No one before, no one after.

I have only a bad picture.


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 Post subject: Re: 1920s Baldwin built 4-4-0 Americans for US customers?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:28 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:41 am
Posts: 5
Location: Northeast PA
I don’t have a date or location, but regardless here’s a modernized D11.


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 Post subject: Re: 1920s Baldwin built 4-4-0 Americans for US customers?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:04 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:55 pm
Posts: 785
Location: Warren, PA
Doesn't entirely meet your cutoff, but should be mentioned as it's a local favorite

Sheffield & Tionesta 11, Baldwin 1915:

https://www.steamlocomotive.com/locobas ... ailroad=st

Bob Richardson photo (yes he hung around here prewar!!)

https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digit ... 7200/rec/5

It replaced a secondhand C&NW 4-4-0 from the 1880's bought bought 1904.


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 Post subject: Re: 1920s Baldwin built 4-4-0 Americans for US customers?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:54 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 2:46 pm
Posts: 2185
Location: Pac NW, via North Florida
Seems to odd to me how many of these wheel arrangements vanished from the new locomotive catalogs so early, yet the British railroads were running them right up to the end of steam...
Image
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Lee Bishop


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 Post subject: Re: 1920s Baldwin built 4-4-0 Americans for US customers?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:58 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:36 pm
Posts: 19
I was thinking the same thing, Lee. The Great Northern Railway of Ireland built three cylinder compounds known as the V Class in 1932, and they were used until 1963!


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 Post subject: Re: 1920s Baldwin built 4-4-0 Americans for US customers?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:30 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 5869
Also, the Frisco and the Katy both modernized older 4-4-0's and used them on passenger trains quite late into the steam era. Although none of the Frisco's good looking modernized American types were saved, one of the Katy's became the only M-K-T steamer to be preserved. The Katy tried to "back date" the 4-4-0 but perhaps its current owner (Museum of Transport) might one day bring it back to its later day in-service look.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: 1920s Baldwin built 4-4-0 Americans for US customers?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:32 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5861
Location: southeastern USA
Steam locomotives were built to do the job that needed to be done - and there's no reason why a 4-4-0 wouldn't be a fine branchline or shortline locomotive, or fast light commuter locomotive right up through the end of American steam (and beyond in more enlightened parts of the world). If you put any of these more modern examples next to TEXAS, for example, there would be a very obvious difference in size and power.

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Santayana: "He who does not remember the past is condemned to repeat it."
Corollary: "He who does is doomed to watch those who don't repeat it anyway."


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 Post subject: Re: 1920s Baldwin built 4-4-0 Americans for US customers?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:40 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:34 am
Posts: 490
Location: Granby, CT but formerly Port Jefferson, NY (LIRR MP 57.5)
Zach Lybrand wrote:
I was thinking the same thing, Lee. The Great Northern Railway of Ireland built three cylinder compounds known as the V Class in 1932, and they were used until 1963!


The preserved example of which being GNR(I) No.85, 'Merlin': https://www.steamtrainsireland.com/rpsi-collection/5/no85-merlin

-Philip Marshall


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 Post subject: Re: 1920s Baldwin built 4-4-0 Americans for US customers?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:46 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:36 pm
Posts: 19
philip.marshall wrote:
Zach Lybrand wrote:
I was thinking the same thing, Lee. The Great Northern Railway of Ireland built three cylinder compounds known as the V Class in 1932, and they were used until 1963!


The preserved example of which being GNR(I) No.85, 'Merlin': https://www.steamtrainsireland.com/rpsi-collection/5/no85-merlin

-Philip Marshall


It's quite an interesting example, being that it's a wheel arrangement that we typically view as small AND built for the Irish gauge of 5' 3". I had a chance to see it just over a year ago and was absolutely blown away at just how stout the damn thing is. The three cylinders made for an interesting and mesmerizing sound as it left Dublin Connolly.


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 Post subject: Re: 1920s Baldwin built 4-4-0 Americans for US customers?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:30 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 5869
Les Beckman wrote:
Also, the Frisco and the Katy both modernized older 4-4-0's and used them on passenger trains quite late into the steam era. Although none of the Frisco's good looking modernized American types were saved, one of the Katy's became the only M-K-T steamer to be preserved. The Katy tried to "back date" the 4-4-0 but perhaps its current owner (Museum of Transport) might one day bring it back to its later day in-service look.

Les


According to the late Lloyd E. Stagner in his "Katy Steam Finale" book, the Missouri-Kansas-Texas shops in Parson, Kansas put new boilers on some 1890's 4-4-0's between 1923 and 1925. This is the same time period as the 1920's Baldwin built 4-4-0's mentioned at the start of this thread. Mr. Stagner stated that these reboiled engines were numbered 306-312 (a total of 7 engines), but numbers 314 and 315 were still on the Katy roster on March 31, 1945 so it seems that there were more than seven rebuilt Americans. In 1948, the engines were renumbered into the 1300's. Engine #1304 (ex-312) made the last 4-4-0 powered Katy passenger train run in January of 1952. Engine #1303 (formerly #311) was the little American that is preserved at MOT.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: 1920s Baldwin built 4-4-0 Americans for US customers?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:36 pm 

Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 5:19 pm
Posts: 473
Location: Bowie, MD
It had escaped me for a long time that the civil war era 4-4-0's had rigid pony wheels. I was staring confused at the B&O #25 the Mason one day at the B&O museum, when a friend pointed it all out - the pony axles are fixed to the frame, the lead driver is blind and has very wide tires.

From the data above, these have pony trucks since the catalog lists the rigid length as 7 or 8 feet. So, was it common for the civil war Americans to have rigid frames and when did they change? Perhaps has they gained weight and the technology improved.

Bob


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 Post subject: Re: 1920s Baldwin built 4-4-0 Americans for US customers?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:56 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5861
Location: southeastern USA
Technology improved - the Bissel post centered swiveling pony truck allowed the weight to be carried by one point at the center of the truck, with two other points between the drivers on either side providing the triangular footprint of weight distribution - very stable while flexible.

_________________
Santayana: "He who does not remember the past is condemned to repeat it."
Corollary: "He who does is doomed to watch those who don't repeat it anyway."


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 Post subject: Re: 1920s Baldwin built 4-4-0 Americans for US customers?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:07 pm 

Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:17 pm
Posts: 98
Two interesting pics. one of a 4-4-0 with baker VG


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