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 Post subject: CFR rules vs State rules
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:30 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:39 pm
Posts: 17
This is a bit of a shift from the air pump question but is on the regulating CFR ( Code of Federal Regulations ). For years I worked with the CFR pertaining to commercial radio and later to aircraft. Now on our bucket list a group of us are building a 2 foot gauge layout on or family 160 acres of ranch land in California and just now will have to face that monster.

On boilers on the same page mentioned here it says ::

§230.23 Responsibility for general construction and safe working pressure.

The steam locomotive owner and operator are responsible for the general design and construction of the steam locomotive boilers under their control. The steam locomotive owner shall establish the safe working pressure for each steam locomotive boiler, after giving full consideration to the general design, workmanship, age, and overall condition of the complete boiler unit. The condition of the boiler unit shall be determined by, among other factors, the minimum thickness of the shell plates, the lowest tensile strength of the plates, the efficiency of the longitudinal joint, the inside diameter of the course, and the maximum allowable stress value allowed. The steam locomotive operator shall not place the steam locomotive in service before ensuring that the steam locomotive's safe working pressure has been established.


From a liability perspective one has to be very careful now I would guess. For the moment we are laying out road bed and have in rout a couple of European circa WW2 diesel 0-4-0's. Because we are in grassland areas we are told not to even think of wood or coal fired equipment so what ever steam we do wind up with will have to be oil fired. Perhaps when time comes I will start with a rotary screw industrial compressor in lieu of a tender. If by passing the boiler for the moment at least we can see how it will work out and no one can for say we are operating a non-certified compressed air tank.

If the CFR ruels apply to Federally regulated operations and the state holds non Federally regulated to a different standard which in California can be any no rational but emotional standard, how does one approach this lunacy ? ? Historically does California stick it's nose into garden railroads and where or how does a garden railroad on strictly private property become a tourist operation which I have no intention of.

Any others out there been through his see-saw with the Left Coast ?

Dan


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 Post subject: Re: CFR rules vs State rules
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:42 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:54 am
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Location: Tucson, Arizona
If your operation is not federally regulated, it might be that you would fall under amusement regulations. I am not familiar with California regs, so that would be something to ask someone such as a live steamer group there.

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 Post subject: Re: CFR rules vs State rules
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:09 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 1898
Location: Strasburg, PA
If your operation is "insular", i.e. all on your own property and not crossing any public roads, then the FRA will not have or even want jurisdiction. Also, the FRA draws the line at 24" gauge and above. Spike your rails down to 23-15/16" gauge and the feds will also leave you alone. Seriously.

From there, every state has its own rules and standards on what is and is not regulated.

However, the larger amusement parks and the ASTM are working together to create nationwide standards for amusement park railroads. Why? Mainly to do away with grey areas when sued by personal injury lawyers. With national standards, it was either right or it was wrong, end of story. So if the railroad was run and maintained to the standard, the shyster will know going in that he has no case.

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 Post subject: Re: CFR rules vs State rules
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:23 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:39 pm
Posts: 17
Hmmm ! So that is why I have seen 18" private layouts. I don't see any problems on shaving 0.5" from the rail set. Since what diesel loco's we have in slow boat shipping will have to be rebuilt anyway, setting the wheels to 23.5" is a non issue. THANKS. The only issue I have seen so far is county regs on grading on private property and that for us is a non issue to date. The property is zoned agricultural so we can always find an excuse such as hauling horse feed or firewood. We just don't see how someone could get a workable layout on 160 acre square shaped plot of land and do it in standard gauge

We are all hovering about 70 years old now so this is our re-enactment of our youth here watching Engineer Bill, drinking our milk and playing with our O and HO train layouts. I had family that worked on the UP here.

Dan


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 Post subject: Re: CFR rules vs State rules
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:59 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:45 pm
Posts: 83
Caveat: I am not an attorney, the following is my opinion based on my own experience in the park train industry in California.

In California, the permanent attraction safety orders govern the operation of attraction based railroads such as park trains. There is an exemption for certain historic and educational organizations, this is how live steam clubs are exempt. If you are not going to have employees and you won't be open to the public (meaning you won't be charging a fare to ride the train) then you are simply running a train on your private land. Your insurance company may have some ideas about what they want. If you are running steam, you may be subject to the boiler safety orders. If you want State permits for your boilers, these are the rules that will govern.

FRA rules do not come into play at all, unless you set up some kind of interchange with a railroad that is part of the national rail system. That doesn't seem to be your case based on what you've shared here.

Good luck and have fun!


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 Post subject: Re: CFR rules vs State rules
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:43 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5872
Location: southeastern USA
European industrial narrow gauge is commonly 60cm, which is about 3/8" narrower than 2 foot. Look for that source and build to it, you'll be OK. Might have trouble finding metric gauges for the track laying in the US, though.

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Corollary: "He who does is doomed to watch those who don't repeat it anyway."


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 Post subject: Re: CFR rules vs State rules
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:24 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2004 4:56 pm
Posts: 23
Location: Mound House, NV
Dan,
If you are not going to charge a fee for access to the facility, which would include train rides (admission charge/pay one price) or a fee to ride the train then DIOSH (CA amusement folks) probably not going to want amusement ride permitting.

From your post/original questions, I would look at the fine print in your general liability insurance policy. The Insurance co may exclude a bunch of stuff or want you to follow all applicable regs. etc. for certain activities. Talk with your broker.

From a risk management standpoint for the train ride, take a hard look at the ASTM regs, especially F770 operations. Are you going to offer hayrides? there is an ASTM std for that too.

You can get all the ASTM amusement ride stds.(and a few on other subjects too) by becoming a member of ASTM. $75.00/yr and choose volume "15.07-end use products" as your free volume of standards included with membership.

Also I would reach out to the folks at Hillcrest in Reedley, they run trains at their xmas tree farm and have DIOSH experience (they are licensed as an amusement ride/device).

PM me if you have any specific questions or would like some contact info.

Good luck and have a great holiday,

C W

C W Craven
Annoying western railway preservation efforts for 40+ years.
(can't believe i been doing this for 40 years now!)
I am also the Sub Committee Chair for ASTM F24.60 (special rides and attractions) which include the amusement park railway stds.


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 Post subject: Re: CFR rules vs State rules
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:25 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:36 am
Posts: 397
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Concerning restrictio0ns on grading and roadbed, a 1/8 scale railroad I am associated with crosses some wetlands. With the concurrence of the regulators, the wetlands are now crossed by foot paths, albeit ones with 7-1/2" gauge railroad tracks on them. The paths' construction allows water to travel under the road bed which is large rock covered with a fabric, and then small scale ballast and track.


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 Post subject: Re: CFR rules vs State rules
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:13 am 

Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:39 pm
Posts: 17
Dick_Morris wrote:
Concerning restrictio0ns on grading and roadbed, a 1/8 scale railroad I am associated with crosses some wetlands. With the concurrence of the regulators, the wetlands are now crossed by foot paths, albeit ones with 7-1/2" gauge railroad tracks on them. The paths' construction allows water to travel under the road bed which is large rock covered with a fabric, and then small scale ballast and track.


Either good or bad, the only surface water on this property is in the center, it's a small valley kind of and there is a man made stock pond with a wind mill pump on it. Ducks like it but we don't mention that because some clown will call it a wild life refuge. Ducks fine, clowns no.

I've watched this forum for years but had no reason to join or post. Thanks for the good ideas here.

BTW the small euro diesel loco's coming are 600mm so by original design figures are under 2 foot. After the ideas given today here, if we do all the road bed and ties but hire a commercial company to set the rails and specify in the contract to set at 600mm if anyone were to ask a question we can just by default say, look at the contract with the contractor. It MUST be 600mm and there for under 2 foot. End of subject. I like that.

Dan


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 Post subject: Re: CFR rules vs State rules
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:28 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 1258
ZOBEX wrote:

BTW the small euro diesel loco's coming are 600mm so by original design figures are under 2 foot.

Something like this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PKP_class_Lyd2


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 Post subject: Re: CFR rules vs State rules
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:30 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 4:02 pm
Posts: 1371
Location: Back in NE Ohio
I was going to suggest 600mm as well, if for no other reason than it would probably be easier to get things like running gear hardware and wheel sets, although from Europe or other foreign sources. Who knows, you might also be able to get part of a 600mm salvage steam loco you could rebuild into something American-looking. If it is totally private, you should be able, for liability purposes, to get by with the insurance offerings for live steamers.


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 Post subject: Re: CFR rules vs State rules
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:28 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:01 pm
Posts: 1565
Location: SouthEast Pennsylvania
ZOBEX wrote:
We just don't see how someone could get a workable layout on 160 acre square shaped plot of land and do it in standard gauge
The Delaware Valley Short Line trolley museum used about half of a 16 acre farm at 208-A Blue Anchor Rd., Tansboro, New Jersey for its layout for more than 10 years. They operated on it for about the last 4 years.


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 Post subject: Re: CFR rules vs State rules
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:31 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:01 pm
Posts: 1565
Location: SouthEast Pennsylvania
Paul Boschan wrote:
FRA rules do not come into play at all, unless you set up some kind of interchange with a railroad that is part of the national rail system.
There are exemptions from many of the FRA regulations if all the other railroad does on your tracks is pick up and deliver cars, etc. for your private operation.


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 Post subject: Re: CFR rules vs State rules
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:06 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 2:05 am
Posts: 80
Location: Glen Ellyn, IL
Paul Boschan wrote:
Caveat: I am not an attorney, the following is my opinion based on my own experience in the park train industry in California.

[Text omitted]

FRA rules do not come into play at all, unless you set up some kind of interchange with a railroad that is part of the national rail system. That doesn't seem to be your case based on what you've shared here.

Good luck and have fun!


Not entirely correct. An "interchange" with a general system railroad, standing alone, does not determine whether a tourist road is (or is not) subject to FRA regulation. For example, a tourist road may have an "interchange" which is no more than an industrial switch for the general system RR to deliver or pull the tourist road's own freight, like a shipper served by a private spur track. That, by itself, would not subject the tourist road to FRA regulation. However, if the track was being used for traffic other than the tourist road's own traffic (for example, traffic moved by the tourist road to or from an industry on its line), the tourist road would be considered part of the general system and would be fully subject to FRA regulation.

The flip side is that a tourist road that has no connection with the general system can still be subject to FRA regulations (including the Part 230 steam rules), particularly if it has any public grade crossings. FRA considers such an operation to be a "non-insular" tourist road subject to its jurisdiction, although not all FRA rules apply (many FRA rules have specific exclusions that cover non-general system "non-insular" tourist roads).

Clear as mud?


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 Post subject: Re: CFR rules vs State rules
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:22 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:54 am
Posts: 1148
Location: Tucson, Arizona
A couple in south Florida has a private trolley line on their property that connects their house to their private boat dock. The streetcar was manufactured by Seashore Trolley Museum (a copy of their City of Manchester). I don't believe the line is subject to either state or federal regulation due to it's design. It doesn't cross any public road and has no rail connection. Also, it is used only by the property owner and private guests. They have a car barn to store the trolley and the house has a boarding station built in.

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