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 Post subject: Re: CFR rules vs State rules
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:57 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 4:02 pm
Posts: 1371
Location: Back in NE Ohio
I would think one could build a significant size ~2 ft. ga. railroad on 160 acres, depending on the shape of the lot. All of Cedar Point Amusement Park's peninsula into Lake Erie is something like 360 acres, and the 3 ft. ga. railroad certainly encompasses a lot less than half of that, and a round-trip is a little over a mile, and takes about 15-20 minutes with one intermediate stop. If the lot is wooded and has some variation in topography it could be made to wind around the property so passengers would never know just exactly how far they are from any other point on the railroad in a ride that could be a couple of miles long.


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 Post subject: Re: CFR rules vs State rules
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:52 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:39 pm
Posts: 19
I happen across this by accident, so this is more things for the mix.

https://www.parkworld-online.com/proposed-standard-will-establish-maintenance-practice-for-amusement-railway-steam-locomotives/

ASTM International’s amusement rides and devices committee is developing a standard to establish new inspection and maintenance requirements for steam propelled locomotives found at amusement parks.

According to Ron Lwin, a committee task group chair, the original manufacturers of historic steam locomotives are often no longer in existence and unable to give recommendations for maintenance, offering little guidance to steam operators. The proposed standard will provide minimum maintenance requirements based on widely accepted historical practices and currently used railroad industry benchmarks.

“The steam locomotives typically found in amusement parks, museums, and at tourist railroads may not currently have an appropriate maintenance standard to reference,” says Lwin, senior quality engineer for Walt Disney World. “This standard will serve as the primary reference for maintenance requirements of steam locomotives.”

The new proposed standard will provide minimum requirements for suitable locomotive operation that fall outside the U.S. Federal Railroad Administration jurisdiction or other local authority having jurisdiction with existing steam train rules, while the expanded appendix will include more specific best practices.


So if they define you as an Amusement operation, one can be zinged for all kinds of Disney ideas.

Dan


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 Post subject: Re: CFR rules vs State rules
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:28 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
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Location: Youngstown, OH
I found the ASTM standards for track for amusement park railways to fairly reasonable and based on FRA track standards for the most part. As long as the committee is familiar with steam locomotive operation and merely wishes to codify existing accepted practices instead of trying to implement practices that suits the big parks and places an undue burden on everyone else, then I think we will be fine.

One issue with amusement park inspectors is that they are used to inspecting rides that were built by a manufacturer and comes with maintenance and operations manuals. Steam locomotives do not come with such manuals which gives the inspectors fits. So the ASTM standards may serve that role and make dealing with the inspection agencies a bit easier.

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J&L Narrow Gauge Railroad
"The shortest and narrowest Railroad in Ohio"


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 Post subject: Re: CFR rules vs State rules
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:31 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 2:05 am
Posts: 80
Location: Glen Ellyn, IL
Alan Walker wrote:
A couple in south Florida has a private trolley line on their property that connects their house to their private boat dock. The streetcar was manufactured by Seashore Trolley Museum (a copy of their City of Manchester). I don't believe the line is subject to either state or federal regulation due to it's design. It doesn't cross any public road and has no rail connection. Also, it is used only by the property owner and private guests. They have a car barn to store the trolley and the house has a boarding station built in.


As you describe it, the operation would certainly not be subject to FRA jurisdiction. State law could be another matter, depending on what laws or regulations the state might have (which can vary by state).


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 Post subject: Re: CFR rules vs State rules
PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:42 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:12 am
Posts: 9
ZOBEX wrote:
I happen across this by accident, so this is more things for the mix.

https://www.parkworld-online.com/proposed-standard-will-establish-maintenance-practice-for-amusement-railway-steam-locomotives/

ASTM International’s amusement rides and devices committee is developing a standard to establish new inspection and maintenance requirements for steam propelled locomotives found at amusement parks.

According to Ron Lwin, a committee task group chair, the original manufacturers of historic steam locomotives are often no longer in existence and unable to give recommendations for maintenance, offering little guidance to steam operators. The proposed standard will provide minimum maintenance requirements based on widely accepted historical practices and currently used railroad industry benchmarks.

“The steam locomotives typically found in amusement parks, museums, and at tourist railroads may not currently have an appropriate maintenance standard to reference,” says Lwin, senior quality engineer for Walt Disney World. “This standard will serve as the primary reference for maintenance requirements of steam locomotives.”

The new proposed standard will provide minimum requirements for suitable locomotive operation that fall outside the U.S. Federal Railroad Administration jurisdiction or other local authority having jurisdiction with existing steam train rules, while the expanded appendix will include more specific best practices.


So if they define you as an Amusement operation, one can be zinged for all kinds of Disney ideas.

Dan


I was privileged to spend several years working in the ASTM Intermational process helping develop professional standards for my industry (even serving as a task group officer). The standards written are intended to represent the best available knowledge/techniques/science, etc. for the subject addressed. If you have interest here, note that:

1) ASTM doesn't regulate anything but the standards developed there are referred to in all kinds of regulations and codes. So if you can get a standard written there, it represents the gold standard of industry state of knowledge and can then be used everywhere later when laws, regulations, and codes are developing.

2) The ASTM process deliberately tries to get everyone involved, including not only industry representatives but also government regulators, public interest groups and individuals and so on. Literally anyone can join the process. In fact, the groups when voting have a balancing process so no one group can skew it. Even though I was an industry expert, I was sometimes not allowed to vote as too many industry experts were already signed on with no other non industry parties to balance one more.

3) It is a consensus process in that if agreement cannot be reached, you don't get to a standard. And to get to a standard your proposals have to be positively voted at each level up through the organization to reach a published standard. So not only do you have to satisfy most everyone in your group, you also have to pass scrutiny of experts looking over your shoulders from a lot of other industries and interested parties who are working on their own standards. You will be surprised at the useful input you will get from unexpected places.

4) If you join, you will be heard. Even if you get outvoted, your objections have to be specifically answered at each step, and only a minimum number of negative votes are allowed for the proposal to move to the next step. So if you really object, you have a lot of ability to make it count. (I know, it was part of my job to speak to the objectors and if we could not get them on board, at least hope to say why we thought they were wrong well enough to convince those above.)

5) Notwithstanding the inclusion of everyone who wants to participate, good knowledge, experience and science prevail. The process sees to that.

6) This is not a static process, the standard when published must be renewed every five years, so it is intended to continually update the state of knowledge if needed.

There is a minimum cost, a yearly ASTM membership fee. And for me as an officer, travel to periodic meetings was required though I expect a lot of it is now handled on the web.

I was a bit of a skeptic at first; I came away with a profound respect for the process and the people who administer it. If any of you have interest in what is being worked on here, don't sit back and wait to see what they come up with, but jump in. You may be surprised at what comes out with your name one of the ones on it.

And with a professional standard you have all kinds of ammunition to work with in the legal and political challenges.

Timothy


Last edited by heatermason on Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: CFR rules vs State rules
PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:55 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:54 am
Posts: 1148
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Robert Opal wrote:
Alan Walker wrote:
A couple in south Florida has a private trolley line on their property that connects their house to their private boat dock. The streetcar was manufactured by Seashore Trolley Museum (a copy of their City of Manchester). I don't believe the line is subject to either state or federal regulation due to it's design. It doesn't cross any public road and has no rail connection. Also, it is used only by the property owner and private guests. They have a car barn to store the trolley and the house has a boarding station built in.


As you describe it, the operation would certainly not be subject to FRA jurisdiction. State law could be another matter, depending on what laws or regulations the state might have (which can vary by state).


In that specific case, I think the most regulation they had to deal with was building code for the car barn, electrical code for the electronics and zoning code.

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"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."- Conductor Nimrod Bell, 1896


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