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 Post subject: Re: Regulations
PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:28 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:39 pm
Posts: 45
This is why I posted it here. First of all, who gives anyone the right to rule over anyone else ? Other than God. If it is a business, it needs a business license from an agency that regulates business, it's called a PERMIT. An amusement park or apparatus that does so for entertainment, conventionally classified as a business, then the business is regulated. A museum that is for the display or demonstration or preservation of some object is for education, that is not entertainment. A school is not regulated as an amusement though most colleges are not not educational. A private user group that operates in a joint ownership basis, that is personal usage and not a business. An association or grouping of people does not need a regulation unless it is done for some function that intends to conform to an issue of financing. Tax basis, that addresses the co-mingling of funds with a track record. Donors want to avoid donated funds to be taxable income. EG a church does not need to be a taxed classification. It is a choice of the individuals participating.

Governmental institutions such as state or local governments commit all kinds of acts without a legal basis, rational basis is another issue. Subservient , submissive people love regulations and being told what to do. It may well be people loving subservience deserve what they get.

Our project is just that, a personal activity, not for profit and with no invitation to others to come and get involved in. Non steam aka boiler locomotives, have no state regulation for a boiler. To what extent do we submit to boiler regulation ? I have several home built Stuart kits. Not one has a boiler certificate nor is regulated to my knowledge. So is a boiler on a 7.5 in railroad a state regulated boiler ?

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 Post subject: Re: Regulations
PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:48 pm 

Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:49 pm
Posts: 16
7.5" boilers in Michigan are regulated by the state. This started about 20 years ago. The state inspects the boilers ever year with every third having a hydro test to 1.5 times the operating pressure. The 2 off years have included internal inspections. At the first inspection, stress calcs are run for the boiler to determine the factor of safety and the state regs are tailored to miniature boilers and copper tubes (which are not allowed under the regular regs) and a steam test is carried out to show that the safeties provide enough volume to keep pressure from rising too high.

The state boiler inspector that Dad and I got to know well said that he didn't see many problems with the smaller boilers but more with the larger boilers associated with park trains and traction engines.


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 Post subject: Re: Regulations - slight drift
PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:52 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:25 pm
Posts: 1996
FWIW, Montgomery County,MD deemed our Museum demonstration railway an "amusement ride" and thus not eligible to operate during Phase II of Covid in the County. When the County reverted to Phase I we decided not to pursue the amusement ride issue since Phase I required us to remain closed to the general public.

Wesley
National Capital Trolley Museum


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 Post subject: Re: Regulations
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:29 am 

Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:15 pm
Posts: 6
Location: Hesston, IN
While I can not comment much on this ongoing matter, I can post our public notice which follows.

In addition, there are other concerns other than just being regulated. We are very concerned that we or any museums that are deemed by a state entity to be having an "amusement devise" to have income that comes in from those "amusement devices" considered outside of the mission of the not for profit and thus taxable by the IRS.

The Indiana amusement law specifies certain equipment requirements that are incompatible with historic rail operations, such as "automatic anti-rollback devices" and "speed regulators" or governors that any steam railroad could not comply with. These "standards" are in the legislation and not in any industry adopted standard.

While we must be diligent every day we have not had an injury in my 30 years of being involved in our operation. The only incident we have is a randomly twisted ankle or cinder in the eye.

The operation has been in existence for 64 years and never had a serious incident.

I ask for safety, professionalism and showmanship from all who are empowered to work at our museum.

Our public statement:

Safety for our guests and volunteers is our #1 priority. Keeping our impeccable safety record is a matter of pride and diligent work in every aspect of our operation. While the museum remains open, due to circumstances beyond our control we are unable to operate any of our railroad exhibits because of notice from the Indiana Department of Homeland Security, Elevator and Amusement Ride Division.

This shutdown was not due to any safety issues found at the Hesston Steam Museum, but an interpretation of the Indiana State Law. To date, the department has not provided the museum or me clear information to work through any details for compliance.
We are heartbroken that we cannot provide you the quality experience you and your family have come to expect when visiting our museum.

We appreciate your understanding, patience, and continued support to keep the Hesston Steam Museum steaming forward! For up‐to‐date information, schedule and events, please visit us at http://www.hesston.org or on Facebook at Hesston Steam Museum.

OUR MISSION:
Educating future generations about the role steam machinery played in the United States and how it improved the quality of life globally. Accomplishing this by the unique means of a living history museum of steam-powered equipment, including railroad locomotives operated in a safe and professional manner.

OUR VISION:
To be the most exciting learning experience in the area.

This museum is not, nor intended to be an amusement park.

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Ted Rita
Director / General Manager
Hesston Steam Museum


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 Post subject: Re: Regulations
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:45 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 7:58 pm
Posts: 27
Could air brakes be considered as automatic and anti rollback devices? Likewise, a human operator has the ability to regulate speed with the aid of a speedometer.

I also think there should be some level of regulation at public operations. If everything was taken on good faith that work was or is performed properly, we’d probably have less to post about.


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 Post subject: Re: Regulations
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:45 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 2:05 am
Posts: 102
Location: Glen Ellyn, IL
My understanding (which is second hand and could be wrong) is that the trade association for the amusement park industry either has or is working on standards (or recommended practices) for amusement park railroads. Someone else may have more information on this.


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 Post subject: Re: Regulations
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:11 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
Posts: 1547
Location: Youngstown, OH
ASTM Standards for amusement park track has been created and are in place, and currently standards for amusement park steam locomotives are being developed. I am recently a member of the ASTM working group that is developing the standards mainly so that I could learn what they are. So far they appear to be very reasonable and based largely on the FRA standards. However I do not care much for ASTM using the term "amusement park" in its title since I think it would be much more helpful to include all non FRA regulated railroad steam locomotives in the standards.

It is interested how ingrained the idea of government regulation has become that so many people now think that govt. regulation has to be the default position. Remember, for years the only regulation on steam boilers came from the Hartford Steam Boiler Inspection and Insurance Company and not the government.

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Rick Rowlands
J&L Narrow Gauge Railroad
"The shortest and narrowest Railroad in Ohio"


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 Post subject: Re: Regulations
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:38 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 7:58 pm
Posts: 27
Having standards, absolutely. I guess by regulations, I was implying standards. However, I believe that there is a need for some form of inspector, whether he/she is from an insurance company, third party, or government agency. That old saying about one bad apple spoiling the bunch comes to mind.


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 Post subject: Re: Regulations
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:09 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:05 pm
Posts: 902
Location: MA
Here is the article. https://www.goupstate.com/article/NC/20 ... 5149551/SJ I find it amusing to read the political undertones of some of these comments making it more than obvious they're not happy with current events they have taken place. But I digress. I remember a certain railroad Museum in Pennsylvania had a member complain that their little crank cars were considered amusement devices and they couldn't let the children ride them. I noted that the Strasburg Railroad also had the same kind of thing and they (Strasburg) had pointed out that they WERE licensed under the amusement park provision. Although I now have to wonder is a swing set (IMHO more dangerous) considered an amusement park device in the state of Pennsylvania? My personal opinion is it would depend on the purpose the device was built for. Your narrow gauge operation at Youngstown steel heritage built to transport what I assume was iron or a byproduct definitely would not fit, but a park train even if it was a steam powered one from 1917 would still fit under the categories in my opinion. Does the original poster have a link to the discussion on the other sites.

Ask why is ASTM doing the code writing In thought that was for ASME.


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 Post subject: Re: Regulations
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:02 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm
Posts: 984
hotbox wrote:
Crescent-Zephyr wrote:
I have no interest in playing a game of mine is bigger than yours.


When you say “old man’s little toy Railroad”... it kinda looks like that's exactly what you're interested in.

Call it a joke, "sense of humor" or whatever you want. It still came across as rude and dismissive to original poster, the party in question, and several other members of the forum including personal friends of mine. There is an attitude in the preservation community that, somehow bigger engines or bigger operations are better/ more important than the little guys. Your comment seems to support that idea. If that's not how you meant it... my bad.


Sarcasm is hard to read on the internet and i need to remember that.

My point was that it’s a word on a paper. I think the Dollywood Railroad is one of the most legit and hard working railroads outside of Colorado and West Virginia. They are, I’m assuming, designated as an amusement park railroad although I’m not sure if Tennessee is set up like that.


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 Post subject: Re: Regulations
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:05 am 

Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 2:05 am
Posts: 102
Location: Glen Ellyn, IL
Fir some reason my prior comment didn't post. So let me try again.

I've been involved in tourist railroads and rail museums for over 50 years. I've also been involved in Class I railroads, including FRA regulation, for over 40 years. If you are involved in tourist railroads/museums. you need approach it as real railroading with all of the potential hazards that can occur on a "real" railroad. It's not a "toy". If you are approaching it as an old man's toy railroad, you should confine yourself to model railroading.


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 Post subject: Re: Regulations
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:09 am 

Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 7:58 pm
Posts: 27
Quote:
Robert Opal wrote:
Fir some reason my prior comment didn't post. So let me try again.

I've been involved in tourist railroads and rail museums for over 50 years. I've also been involved in Class I railroads, including FRA regulation, for over 40 years. If you are involved in tourist railroads/museums. you need approach it as real railroading with all of the potential hazards that can occur on a "real" railroad. It's not a "toy". If you are approaching it as an old man's toy railroad, you should confine yourself to model railroading.


Agreed, the human body doesn’t differentiate between 10 tons of steel or 110 tons of steel, the end result is the same. As such, anyone out there “playing trains” is dangerous and is the reason for standards and inspections. If anyone is naive enough to think that there aren’t any accidents out there waiting to happen, go surf YouTube.


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 Post subject: Re: Regulations
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 1:10 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
Posts: 1547
Location: Youngstown, OH
The ASTM International Committee F24 of Amusement Rides and Devices hosted a series of online meetings last week and as a member I was able to participate. After listening to the various work group sessions I came away with a much better understanding of the process as well as informed my thinking on the topic of these standards.

Generally the intent seems to be to create standards to fill a void left by the FRA and to remove ambiguity for the various state level agencies that these rail operations fall under. Basically if an amusement inspector is deemed to have jurisdiction over a non FRA rail operation then it is better that the inspector has something to refer to instead of trying to shoehorn roller coaster rules on your rail operation just because that is the closest thing he is familiar with that looks sorta like a train.

The steam locomotive standards look amazingly similar to the FRA steam locomotive standards but with some changes to suit the nature of these smaller operations. There are also standards for operations and rolling stock being developed which will help remove ambiguities in these areas.

While it would be my preference that they call the new standards something other than "amusement park" since these will also affect operations that are in no way shape or form amusement parks, generally I am quite pleased at the efforts that ASTM is taking.

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Rick Rowlands
J&L Narrow Gauge Railroad
"The shortest and narrowest Railroad in Ohio"


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 Post subject: Re: Regulations
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:30 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm
Posts: 984
Rick Rowlands wrote:

While it would be my preference that they call the new standards something other than "amusement park" since these will also affect operations that are in no way shape or form amusement parks, generally I am quite pleased at the efforts that ASTM is taking.


What term do you think would be appropriate? It shouldn’t be considered an insult since I’m willing to bet that many amusement park railroads move more people per year than even the most successful tourist railroads and museums.

“Demonstration Railroad”
“Museum Railroad”
“Heritage Railroad”


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 Post subject: Re: Regulations
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 6:25 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
Posts: 1547
Location: Youngstown, OH
"Non Federally Regulated Rail Operations" I think covers everything since it is the one thing that we have in common and the main reason why the ASTM standards are needed.

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J&L Narrow Gauge Railroad
"The shortest and narrowest Railroad in Ohio"


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