Stone said they needed to replace about 2500 ties a year over the next 5 years or so. How much does that come out to per year by these estimates... ?

I find it peculiar that Stone indicated WMSR had no 'tie-replacing
machinery at all, which is not what Howard indicates.

What does need to be resolved is this supposed grant-condition issue that precludes museum volunteers from doing any of the actual work; that's more important than the condition that the work be finished and approved before any draw on the grant funds is allowed. As Stone pointed out, if the museum needs to have outside contractors do the whole of the tie replacement ... it will be much more expensive and subject to more stalls and issues.

Bridge inspection is the responsibility of the state. Nominal accountability for track compliance may be, too. Does anyone know the specific legal status?

Just adding onto this, I don’t think a slow moving locomotive heavy locomotive like the 1309 be operating on CSX excursions anytime soon.

If there are possible candidates, the two best ones are probably the ones being restored in deep CSX territory: the 576, and the 2716. If there are any other big candidates, I’d like to know.

He meant the obvious one, of course: 614.

The one that comes next after that is 490, which is one of the great surviving 'unsung' national treasures -- there is quite a locomotive under that streamlining. While I doubt there is presently enough 'support' for a full mechanical rebuilding when 490's turn comes up for 'restoration' (after the GE-IR oil-electric, I believe) we might ask for the kind of internal work that PRR 460 supposedly received in many significant 'internal' places.

Forgive me for dragging this discussion further off topic, but I have not heard this news about 460 before. What, if anything, to the internals was done? I have a very mixed opinion on the RRMPA and to hear this would likely win them quite a few points in my book.

To make a comment regarding the thread topic, I would agree with the sentiment that a good way for the WMSR to make money would be to send 1309 somewhere else until the track work could be complete. To where I'm not sure. I doubt the IRM or Strasburg could handle her... maybe the RBMN? They have quite a bit of coal business for 1309 to haul on some photo charters...

I'm sure if Strasburg could handle 611 for a few months, then they could just as easily handle 1309; same could probably be said for IRM considering they take wonderful care of their physical plant. Of course all of that is moot since the logistics of moving her to either location would take forever to plan; what with the multiple connecting lines involved and all.

Though if you really want to get the foam flying; Kentucky Steam Heritage posted a photo on Facebook of John Garner paying a visit to 2716 the other week and the post had a tongue in cheek remark about double heading. https://www.facebook.com/kentuckysteam/ ... 818363608/

Agreed. 611 is the largest / heaviest operating coal fired steam locomotive in the country... Strasburg can handle anything they want to handle! Haha.

Overmod and mcgrath 618 --

As a member of the team that restored PRR No. 460 at the RRMPA, I can tell you exactly what went on. We removed the master mechanic front end and pulled out all the superheater units that would come out. There were two that we were unable to remove. One was apparently locked in place by scale, and the other one had failed at some point. it was torched off and the ends of the units were crushed and welded shut. The interior of all the superheater flues were sprayed with a rust reformer, the units were needle scaled and rust reformed. All the superheater units were then placed back in position. We replaced the front end, repairing what needed to be repaired. That was it. Nothing more was done. On the backhead, we removed the various appliances and sandblasted or needle scaled them before we replaced them. Again, that was all.

Thank you for your detailed response. Regardless of whether she's ever running again, you guys dressed her up real nice.



Is 1309 heavier or lighter than 611? You are 100% right about its transit to Strasburg being a logistical nightmare though... especially considering Amtrak's position on steam right now.

This again leads me to the RBMN. Getting there would be relatively simple, as no move over Amtrak is required. Why not dress 1309 up as an RDG N1? Surely from excursions alone it would make enough money to help pay for track upgrades.

611 is the second heaviest operating steam locomotive in the country.. only the big boy has her beat.

#1309 will be around the 10th largest in the country... just behind the 765 and 1225

To be honest I wasnt even thinking about Amtrak when I wrote that. My mind went straight to dealing with Union Pacific and CSX on the way to IRM, and how neither of them exactly have the most stellar of reputations with towing steam locomotives - if all the rumor mill stories are to be believed
And to be fair it seems like NS prefers to work with well established steam preservation groups and individuals if theyre going to even contemplate allowing a piece of equipment on their trackage - granted most of the moves I've read about all seem to be rather straight forward point a to point b on the NS system only.

Regarding the comments about what's needed to handle the 1309--well, in terms of overall size, she's roughly as heavy as a 2-8-4 (434,900 lbs. engine only, 643,000 lbs. engine and tender, vs. 428,500 lbs. and 784,500 lbs. respectively for engine and engine and tender for an NKP 2-8-4). She has more tractive effort (98,300 lbs. simple, 77,900 lbs. compound, vs. 64,135 for the two-cylinder Berkshire), but would have rather less horsepower (72.2square feet of grate area vs. 90.3), and would hit maximum hp. at about 20-25 mph. vs. 35 or so for the Super Power engine. Her maximum axle loading on the No. 5 driving axle is 62,600 lbs., all other axles carry less. The most notable thing for me is her rigid wheelbase, only 10 feet, 0 inches (less than a lot of diesel trucks!), vs. 18 feet, 3 inches for the leggier rigid 2-8-4. That articulation and what I recall is a somewhat smaller loading gauge allowed these engines to bend around curves and squeeze past mine tipples in places where the 2-8-4s couldn't go.

I wouldn't send her up the geared engine territory that's Cass, but I don't think she'd give the Strasburg any trouble at all, except maybe fitting into an enginehouse, and that's purely due to overall length (98 feet, 8 inches, which means you may not be able to get a second engine in a stall and be able to close the doors). At that, her overall wheelbase is only about 88 feet, 7 inches, so she'd easily fit on WMSR's 100-foot turntable at Frostburg, provided that vertical curve can be addressed. She really shouldn't give any trouble moving on a Class I except for relatively low speed and the fact that she is a steam engine, and would give the management of the Class I a big case of the vapors!

I wonder if there would be any possibility of the 1309 running on the Potomac Eagle nearby? I believe the South Branch Valley RR would be receptive. There isn’t any infrastructure for water and coal, but I believe that can be dealt with without too much trouble. There is a wye in Moorefield to turn 1309 on if needed. It would be close enough to Cumberland for WMSR fundraising and the WMSR and PEX has a history together (under previous ownership/ management).

Again the sticking point is working with CSX for a short movement from Cumberland to Green Spring. That was attempted in 2010 with 734, but CSX said no.

Note that Amtrak has never had any hesitation regarding our running deadhead moves over their line. How do you think #611 got here?

No, the problem lies with CSX. As was mentioned WMSR tried to deadhead #743 about ten miles over CSX with no luck. I tried to get permission to move PLCo. #37 about 1,500 feet in the CSX yard in Wilmington with absolutely no luck.

The safe bet is that no steam locomotive is ever leaving WMSR except on a flat car, at least until CSX has a change of heart.

"....a change of heart."

May I reference a certain C&O 2-8-4 in Eastern Kentucky? Seems to be a different attitude at CSX for the last few years.

Howard P.

That, and the 576 moving by rail a couple of miles and even being displayed at the former Nashville union station