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 Post subject: Re: 1309 - All dressed up and nowhere to go
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:58 pm 

Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 10:30 pm
Posts: 803
Location: Bucks County, PA
Crescent-Zephyr wrote:
PMC wrote:
Howard P. wrote:
The WMSR crew is still putting the finishing touches on 1309, and some of you are already speculating about where else it could/will/should operate? Let's all sit back and let them do their thing with 1309, and get their railroad in order.
Howard P.

Plus, "You Got to Dance with Them What Brung You". I doubt the region in which WMSR operates, which has contributed to 1309's restoration, and now is being asked for money for track, would be thrilled to see it attracting visitors in other regions. Part of the appeal of having this articulated steamer is that it is unique (in the east anyway), having 1309 attracts attention to a not so prosperous region in a way the other destinations mentioned won't be able to. Sending it around like the Gramlings do with their engines would take away that proprietary draw for the hotels, restaurants and other accommodations around western Maryland.


Are we expecting the 1309 to be a draw to the non-railfan crowd? That’s a serious question. It will be a draw for me but so is the Inyo and the Glenbrook out in Nevada so I’m not going to use my own judgement.


It all depends on how they market it. If they market it heavily to the general public as the "largest" or "most powerful" (or whatever) steam locomotive in the eastern half of the USA - make 1309 out to be a sight to see and experience - then I think, yes. Maybe even offer a runby along the route to the passengers, so they can get off and experience the power, the locomotive coming by - then I think it would absolutely be a draw.

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 Post subject: Re: 1309 - All dressed up and nowhere to go
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:19 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 1372
Crescent-Zephyr wrote:

Are we expecting the 1309 to be a draw to the non-railfan crowd? That’s a serious question. It will be a draw for me but so is the Inyo and the Glenbrook out in Nevada so I’m not going to use my own judgement.

That's a fair question, sometimes we need to put ourselves in the shoes of non-railfans, which isn't always easy. I'm not a consumer of local news generally so I'm not sure where non-railfans would hear about it. I am assuming that the massive publicity around 1309 radiates out into the mass media market in the east, and not just the railfan press, but I don't know that for sure.


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 Post subject: Re: 1309 - All dressed up and nowhere to go
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:59 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
Posts: 638
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Interesting point.

Here in Philadelphia, 1309 is the last new US steam locomotive built by Baldwin. That said, there has been no press about the engine being rebuilt or of the WMSR needing trackwork.

Cumberland isn't that far away, but no mention on news outlets either good or bad. .

Phil Mulligan


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 Post subject: Re: 1309 - All dressed up and nowhere to go
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:03 pm 

Dave wrote:
Antifoam: double headers work best when both locomotives have similar operating characteristics. Would you run a Y and J on the same excursion? One would either hold the other back or shove the other slowly forward. Foam rationally, people, if such things are possible.


Perhaps you should have told that to the B&O when they used to double head 2-8-8-4s with 4-6-2s and 2-8-2s.

Rick


  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1309 - All dressed up and nowhere to go
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:08 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:15 pm
Posts: 353
R L Musser wrote:

Perhaps you should have told that to the B&O when they used to double head 2-8-8-4s with 4-6-2s and 2-8-2s.

Rick


Rick that’s not exactly the best comparison.

The EM-1’s were pretty swift machines, not locomotives designed explicitly for slow hauling coal trains or helper service. They could do it all; Frequently used on mail trains and even many mainline excursions for a time. Correct or not, I’ve heard them associated with 80mph at least once. They were also simple expansion if I recall correctly, unlike compounds like the C&O H class and the N&W Y class.

Even with a massive power difference it would still not be unrealistic to see them doubleheading at solid speeds with the smaller freight and passenger locomotives, or even earlier road diesels. I’ve seen footage and photographs of them in tandem with E Units, F Units, and Alco FA’s.

The EM-1’s could absolutely keep up with speedy timetables when needed to. So in that regard it wouldn’t be that bad to put with say a 4-6-2 or a 2-8-2.

Damn shame that one couldn’t be saved in time. Especially when I consider the EM-1 as probably one of the best out there in terms of overall success. The fact one isn’t preserved severely underrates it’s success as a design.


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 Post subject: Re: 1309 - All dressed up and nowhere to go
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:06 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:38 am
Posts: 81
It has been reported the the B & O fired the guy who authorized the scrapping of the last EM-1's without running it by the hierarchy . If true, at least the B & O did something right with regard to scrapping of the EM-1's.


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 Post subject: Re: 1309 - All dressed up and nowhere to go
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:41 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:15 pm
Posts: 353
WESIII wrote:
It has been reported the the B & O fired the guy who authorized the scrapping of the last EM-1's without running it by the hierarchy . If true, at least the B & O did something right with regard to scrapping of the EM-1's.


The plan was that an EM-1 was to be donated to the museum (there’s proof in writing that was the plan) but there was a miscommunication and the locomotive was scrapped in the 1960-61 range. It was being kept in Pennsylvania but I forget which town.

The museum was planning on fundraising to transport the locomotive but because it was the winter the museum was closed and couldn’t fundraise its transport.

The B&O were rightfully pissed about it, and I don’t blame them. Not to have an example of probably the most successful locomotives that ever ran on the B&O preserved is a travesty, and they knew it.


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 Post subject: Re: 1309 - All dressed up and nowhere to go
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:57 pm 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
Posts: 1490
WESIII wrote:
It has been reported the the B & O fired the guy who authorized the scrapping of the last EM-1's without running it by the hierarchy . If true, at least the B & O did something right with regard to scrapping of the EM-1's.


So why would a guy just scrap a B&O locomotive without the knowledge or permission from management?


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 Post subject: Re: 1309 - All dressed up and nowhere to go
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 3:06 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 9898
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
Ron Travis wrote:
So why would a guy just scrap a B&O locomotive without the knowledge or permission from management?


It's not "a guy." It's the "chain of command" that had the loco shoved into a scrap yard or on a siding where scrappers were coming. The left hand didn't know what the right hand was ordering. We saw that all over again with WM 3798/CSX 6573 decades later.

I experienced this personally with an attempt to save two ex-Lehigh Valley two-bay coal hoppers that were part of an internal-use-only train of retired hoppers (mostly ex-PRR) used to run coal from the stockpiles to the rotary dumper as needed at my local power plant. They had been replaced by retired PPLX unit train hoppers.

I had contacted plant officials to arrange the preservation of those two cars as the train was about to be cut up, and they were shoved down to the end of a siding away from the PRR hoppers.

The scrapper showed up, was pointed to the siding, and told "Start at that end and work your way back; don't touch the last two cars."
They went to the wrong end. The "end" of the siding, working their way "back" towards the plant entrance--not what they were told. .
I drove by as they cut the frame of the second car, and tore right into the plant past security. It was too late. Their excuse was it was easier to drive up to the cars back at the bumper post.

Lesson for future wannabe preservationists:
Get a can of spray paint and spray "DO NOT SCRAP" on the car at a minimum, maybe a contact phone number or address as well, even if the matter/donation/price is still in negotiation. And make the letters four feet high if possible, as well as smaller lettering--I've seen dolts cut right through such lettering, or hump a car covered with "DO NOT HUMP" placards.


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 Post subject: Re: 1309 - All dressed up and nowhere to go
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:07 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:08 pm
Posts: 185
Location: Alberta, Canada
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
Ron Travis wrote:
So why would a guy just scrap a B&O locomotive without the knowledge or permission from management?


It's not "a guy." It's the "chain of command" that had the loco shoved into a scrap yard or on a siding where scrappers were coming. The left hand didn't know what the right hand was ordering.


There are all sorts of stories like that. Supposedly CP wanted to save one of the 3000-series 4-4-4 Jubilees, only Angus (Montreal) and Ogden (Calgary) each thought the other would be saving one, so both shops sent all they had for scrap.

CN was going to donate 4-6-4 5700 to a museum, but it was torched through such a miscommunication. So they hastily renumbered 5703(?) to 5700 and donated that one instead.


Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
Lesson for future wannabe preservationists:
Get a can of spray paint and spray "DO NOT SCRAP" on the car at a minimum, maybe a contact phone number or address as well, even if the matter/donation/price is still in negotiation. And make the letters four feet high if possible, as well as smaller lettering--I've seen dolts cut right through such lettering, or hump a car covered with "DO NOT HUMP" placards.


This. A thousand times this. I work in T&E service, and believe me, not matter how well you think you have prepared things with all the other departments we WILL find a way to damage or lose your stuff, or simply deliver it to the wrong spur and then refuse to move it again, and then we will probably say it was YOUR fault.

If you are sending a piece of rolling stock to what we would view as an unusual destination (many museum spurs rarely see interchange traffic), put notes in the windows or near the handbrake so that we don't accidentally deliver it to the scrapyard just down the road.

Sorry to drag this farther off topic.

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 Post subject: Re: 1309 - All dressed up and nowhere to go
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:02 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 1954
Location: Strasburg, PA
SD70dude wrote:
If you are sending a piece of rolling stock to what we would view as an unusual destination (many museum spurs rarely see interchange traffic), put notes in the windows or near the handbrake so that we don't accidentally deliver it to the scrapyard just down the road.
I understand that George Hart had a string of historic freight cars consigned to the RRMPA that left their point of origin and were never seen again.

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 Post subject: Re: 1309 - All dressed up and nowhere to go
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:44 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 1372
SD70dude wrote:

If you are sending a piece of rolling stock to what we would view as an unusual destination (many museum spurs rarely see interchange traffic), put notes in the windows or near the handbrake so that we don't accidentally deliver it to the scrapyard just down the road.


And don't be so cheap, pay the railroad cash money to move it, even if it were donated. It was so predictable when the ex-EL SD45-2 was cut up, it was mixed in with equipment to be scrapped, and the scrapper had probably paid a flat amount for the lot of it, he had every incentive to cut up everything and then claim ignorance later. Had the group receiving the unit paid to have it moved somewhere safe (at least not in a line of equipment due to be scrapped) it might still be with us.


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 Post subject: Re: 1309 - All dressed up and nowhere to go
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:36 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 9898
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
Kelly Anderson wrote:
I understand that George Hart had a string of historic freight cars consigned to the RRMPA that left their point of origin and were never seen again.


I know personally of at least one instance where almost the opposite happened: A string of retired Conrail MOW equipment (including Pullman cars converted to camp cars) "disappeared" en route from their origin to the yard where they were to be scrapped, "mysteriously" turning up overnight on the other side of a "change of ownership" tie/mark on a branch track en route to a rail museum............... at the hands of a Conrail employee who was a member of said museum. Only then was a formal donation arranged for.

As I and others have emphasized time and time again, DO NOT let a notable or historic piece of rolling stock loose on a railroad without an escort, expediter, and/or tracking tags. I don't care how nice the executives or trainmasters are, DON'T trust them. As much as I hate to insult people, you will never see the depths of depraved ignorance, apathy, or even malice until you attempt to work with front-line rail employees who have never seen a passenger car, locomotive different from their own, or the like threatening to "ruin their day." It can literally be like asking a person who has never known anything other than Windows 10 and smartphones to run a vintage Apple, DOS, dial-up modem, pay phone, IBM punch cards, Radio Shack TRS-80, etc. You are effectively trying to order a chicken Marsala with asparagus at a McDonald's. I have had screaming matches deep in a rail yard at 4 in the morning with employees making every fathomable excuse not to touch the rolling stock they were supposed to attach to the train. One guy called me up for help after his passenger car ended up 1500 miles the opposite direction on the wrong railroad. THIS STUFF HAPPENS. ASSUME IT WILL.

I learned it the hard way. You don't have to.


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 Post subject: Re: 1309 - All dressed up and nowhere to go
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 10:32 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
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Location: Youngstown, OH
Friends don't let friends ship historic rail equipment by rail if they can help it.

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 Post subject: Re: 1309 - All dressed up and nowhere to go
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:32 am 

Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:26 pm
Posts: 122
Spray painting a big S on the junk didn't stop the scrappers from cutting up the good stuff.

A member bought a commuter coach from back east and it was delivered to our spur right off the yard with all the wheels flat. I would guess someone didn't know how the bleed the air off a passenger car. The railroad paid for it, but they got possession.


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