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 Post subject: Film crew producing TV show about sunken train
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:49 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:02 am
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Hoghead Media is currently producing a TV show about Canadian Pacific 2-8-0 #3512. For those unaware, 3512 met its demise in 1946 when it and the rest of its train, consisting of log cars, a van, and snowplow plunged into Slocan Lake after the leaky barge carrying them listed. Today they rest in nearly 600 feet of water and have been visited by an ROV in years past.

Based on a few articles published online, the show will feature footage of the wreck site as it appears today, commentary provided by the last surviving crew member of the train, and the history and impact of the railroads in British Columbia.

Attachment:
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http://www.valleyvoice.ca/_PDF_2016/Val ... 022web.pdf

https://www.westcoasttraveller.com/summ ... ocan-lake/

More information about the 1946 incident is available to read here, kindly supplied by Exporail: https://exporail.org/portail/can_rail/c ... a-1973.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: Film crew producing TV show about sunken train
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:32 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
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Location: Maine
I have been interested in this locomotive for years. I'd like to know if the boiler blew when the engine hit the cold water, and whether the crown sheet collapsed. I've seen only one dark image of the locomotive to date, and it appeared to be in very good condition, with the exception of the pilot. In dark, cold, fresh water for 74 years doesn't necessarily mean destroyed, and the technology to retrieve the locomotive and tender does exist. Getting permits from environment Canada and Brit.Col. might be more difficult than funding the whole effort.
Before people start in on me for considering such an effort, admit it; you want to see it too!

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 Post subject: Re: Film crew producing TV show about sunken train
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:56 am 

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Location: Pacific, MO
I was hoping it was the PRR engine in the quarry.


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 Post subject: Re: Film crew producing TV show about sunken train
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 6:13 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
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Location: Maine
The individual who reported the Pennsy B8 to me he stood on the roof. At 600 feet depth, one would need extremely long legs. Probably the CPR locomotive reported in the two articles, but then I'm going on faith.

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 Post subject: Re: Film crew producing TV show about sunken train
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:21 pm 

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BC has an good number of locomotives in lakes:
2-6-0 Canadian National Ry #417
Fell into Armstrong Lake, written off 10-20
2-8-0 Canadian National Ry #2727
Hit rockslide and went into Kamloops Lake 01-14-34
2-8-0 Canadian Pacific Ry #3512
Lost off of barge into Slocan Lake 12-31-46
2-8-0 Pacific Great Eastern Ry #53
Hit rockslide and went into Seton Lake 01-23-50
2-8-0 Pacific Great Eastern Ry #56
Hit rockslide and went into Anderson Lake 08-02-44


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 Post subject: Re: Film crew producing TV show about sunken train
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:44 pm 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
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I have not read all of the attached reference, but I saw a mention of this wreck being observed by the use of an underwater camera. There seems to be no doubt that the engine is in the Lake as indicated by the detailed account of the mishap. If that were the only verification, actually locating the submerged engine might be extremely difficult.

However, if it has been actually located, that paves the way for further exploration and possible photos/videos. Are there photos available online that show the discovery made by the previous use of the underwater robot?


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 Post subject: Re: Film crew producing TV show about sunken train
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:12 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:28 pm
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Location: Northern WV
I remember a TV show from several years ago that had video of two sunken 1850s Planet 2-2-2T locomotives off the New Jersey Shore.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... water.html

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 Post subject: Re: Film crew producing TV show about sunken train
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:29 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
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Location: Maine
If anyone is further interested, there is a thread regarding CPR 3512 [u]including an image of the tender back[u] and some additional information. Scan down about half the page. This is not to be confused with the color images of the CPR ten-wheeler in Lake Superior. The depth is listed as 900 feet, which conflicts with other information. We can agree, it's way deep!
I hope more video of quality is taken and released in the near future.

https://www.smokstak.com/forum/threads/ ... 94.165646/

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 Post subject: Re: Film crew producing TV show about sunken train
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:35 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:13 pm
Posts: 57
I'll copy and paste it from Smokstak with the author's permission (me).

"I recently came across my copy of the 1995 ROV footage of the wreck of the #3512 and train, 900' deep in Slocan Lake, B.C. (EDIT 22/02/21 - the wreck is 730' + feet deep -RwC).

To the best of my knowledge this footage was never released and this is the first time it has been shown to the public. I do not claim ownership of the images below and I have long since lost contact with the folks who shot the film, but I do have signed consent to share the images provided they are not used in a commercial context.

The film resolution is very poor (think of walking through an abandoned house, looking through a long cardboard tube with only a cigarette lighter to guide your way), the raw footage tape is over 2 hours long and mostly just shots of kicked up sediment and extreme (less than 1" away) closeups, there are no 'sweeping' shots of the the wreckage - only close ups. It is very choppy fottage....for several long minuites there is nothing but swirling sediment or blackness then -BANG- a few fleeting seconds of the equipment.

The locomotive is sitting upside down in a crater it made when it hit the bottom, it appears to be buried nose first in mud. The boiler did not explode though everything covered in what appears to be mud. Cab numbers clearly visible.

The tender separated from the locomotive, it is sitting upright on the bottom buried up to it's frame, the bunker is empty but the firemen's tools and lanterns are still in place.

The van is sitting upright, buried up to it's frame. It appears to be in pristine condition aside from being covered in sediment. The ROV tried to get inside but could not fit in through the doorway. It did get some shots of the interior through the doorway and windows which showed the stove, tables and chairs with one that looks like a jacket hanging on it's back.

The plow is sitting on what looks like a 70 degree angle with it's nose buried into the bottom and it's rear 'up in the air'. It looks to be in excellent condition, the handbrakes are applied, the rear truck is still attached and the headlight is intact though the front lens cover has swung open. The light-bulb has not imploded.

The logs cars appear to have come to rest in a jumbled pile with several frames resting on top of each other. There is not much to see aside from some upside down wheel sets, couplers and center frames."

Here's the rear of the tender showing the locomotive number and tender capacity -
Image

Here's the van (caboose) CP #436983 (see post below for a pre deepwater dive pic)
Image


The writing on the side of the van " Canadian Pacific"
Image

Rear of tender showing the locomotive number -
Image

Here's the headlight from the snowplow. The bulb is still intact.
Image

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Best answer to the Canadian Pacific fireman's exam question (found in the company archives)- What is steam? - "Steam? That's just water that's gone crazy with the heat."


Last edited by RoyalwithCheese on Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Film crew producing TV show about sunken train
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:43 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:13 pm
Posts: 57
Way back in the 2000's, I spoke with a woman who was part of a Vancouver area Scuba Diving club that found and documented the site. From what I understood the wrecksite was pretty straight forward to find, they zeroed in on it in an afternoon. The topography of the lakebottom in that spot is very flat, flat enough that they found the wreckage first with a fish finder, then confirmed it with a basic side scan sonar. It's the biggest blip on the lakebed!

Finding it was one thing, getting to it was another - it's a deep damn lake so they brought a friend up from the US who had an ROV capable of diving that deep and spent an afternoon filming what was down there.

I don't remember any names off the top of my head, however I have it all written down in my files. I do remember that these folks were not even remotely railfans but divers that liked underwater exploration, 'heard a story' and they 'just wanted to see what was down there'. Aside from a spot on the local TV station, it didn't get much press and so I guess folks just moved on and let the #3512 go back to sleep.

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Best answer to the Canadian Pacific fireman's exam question (found in the company archives)- What is steam? - "Steam? That's just water that's gone crazy with the heat."


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 Post subject: Re: Film crew producing TV show about sunken train
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:04 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:13 pm
Posts: 57
CPR # 3512 and CPR Van#436983 in 1946, a year and change before their one way deep water expedition -

Image

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Best answer to the Canadian Pacific fireman's exam question (found in the company archives)- What is steam? - "Steam? That's just water that's gone crazy with the heat."


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 Post subject: Re: Film crew producing TV show about sunken train
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:22 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:13 pm
Posts: 57
A good shot of the fireman's side of CPR #3512 in the process of boarding the Slocan Lake barge in 1946 -

Image

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Best answer to the Canadian Pacific fireman's exam question (found in the company archives)- What is steam? - "Steam? That's just water that's gone crazy with the heat."


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 Post subject: Re: Film crew producing TV show about sunken train
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:03 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:20 pm
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I wonder what kind of shape she is in, and what she would look like if they pulled her up.


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 Post subject: Re: Film crew producing TV show about sunken train
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:12 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 4297
Location: Maine
I received these two files from the underwriter this morning.

A steam locomotive slid off a car-barge in 1947 and lies hidden in
one of the deepest lakes in Canada. After 73 years underwater, a
team of experts now works to rediscover, extract and restore the
historic train.

SYNOPSIS
A “Hogger” is an old term for a steam locomotive engine. On New Year’s Eve 1947, locomotive Number 3512 was lost
as it fell off a wooden barge and into waters 900ft deep. “The Shipwrecked Hogger” is the untold story that begins on
that cold, winter night on Slocan Lake in South-Eastern British Columbia. Waking up to disaster, the rail crew frantically
worked to save themselves as they witnessed their steam train slip into the cold darkness of one of Canada’s deepest
lakes. There is only one man alive today to tell this story, 97 year old head-end brakeman Bill Chapman. Over the
course of this investigative history docuseries, Bill’s testimonies aid the expedition that has been tasked to find the lost
train, and to restore this lost piece of Canadian rail history.
The investigative team is led by Fraser Keil, an expert subsea engineer, supported by his commercial dive team. Due
to extreme water depths, the dive team must employ ROV (Remote Operated Vehicle) submarine technology,
Ocean Floor Geophysics’ magnetometers, and 881A Sonar Blue View technology to stand a chance. Advising the
team is the ever-present quirky, small-town folk who inhabit the shores of this unique lake, with tall tales and dire
warnings on these unpredictable waters, such as the infamous “Black Line”, a phenomenon that can be seen on the
horizon before a particularly fierce storm. Underwater currents, tether-snagging debris, and misleading local
information prove the greatest challenges, keeping the expedition on the water for days on-end. As the snow begins
to fall, and day turns to night, the search for the elusive locomotive becomes exhausting. But defeat is not an option
for this crew. When the search comes up empty, expedition leader Fraser Keil is forced to re-evaluate and change
tactics. He re-examines evidence, and takes a different approach. Suddenly, the ROV camera captures locomotive
engine Number 3512, its coal tender, caboose and snowplow… all sitting 720ft deep on the lake bottom. After 75
years underwater, the team can now shift their focus to deep water salvage and restoration possibilities.
Following alongside the search expedition, narrator
and local BC history TV personality Mike Roberts
delves into the region’s rich history and archives,
painting the bigger picture that showcases the
railway’s impact in Western Canada. This includes
why steam locomotives were transported via tug
and barge operations at that time, the impact of
the local boom and bust in “The Silvery Slocan”
mining rush, and its impact on our national identity.
Additionally, with a look at how a population of
thousands declined to only a few hundred, this
series features historians, archives, re-enactments
and folklore telling this story of generations past, in a
region that helped shape the nation. With a distinct
documentary style and high production value look,
The Shipwrecked Hogger can be compared to
series such as BBC’s “Biggest Little Railway” and
Netflix’s “Last Breath”.


Series Main Plot:
The last living survivor of the 1947 shipwreck which lost steam Locomotive Number 3512
aids an investigative expedition to find the lost train. Searching in depths of up to 900ft, a
team of subsea engineers, commercial divers and ROV technicians use historical
testimony, folklore and modern technology to find the 75 year-old wreckage.
Episodic Sub Plots:
-An intimate look at the history of the steam railways that united Canada coast to coast,
developed the Canadian frontier, and unlocked BC’s booming mineral and lumber
industries.
-Meeting local residents living along Slocan Lake and seeing their contributions to the
search team, their unique perspectives on environmental stewardship, and their
relationship with one of Canada’s deepest and cleanest lakes.
-Discovering the daily lives of the everyday underground miners and loggers who still
lead a hard but rewarding lifestyle in these small towns, filled with wild stories and folklore
from generations past.

Okay, I've left out the pictures and biographies of the people involved, but there is the basic story straight from the horse's orifice.


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 Post subject: Re: Film crew producing TV show about sunken train
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:42 pm 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
Posts: 1490
thebrantfordrailfan wrote:
I wonder what kind of shape she is in, and what she would look like if they pulled her up.

Apparently it is at least 600 ft. deep. I am not sure of the lake bottom composition. It may be sand, or bedrock, but unlikely to be organic muck. If it is bedrock, the falling impact of the locomotive could have caused extensive damage. 600 feet of drop would have permitted the locomotive to gain its maximum drop speed in the water. What would that be? My wild guess would be 30-40 mph.

In any case, a recovery would require the necessary heavy lift equipment to access the site in the Lake while floating a considerable distance from shore. Then lift cables would have to be attached to the engine in 600 ft. of water. This would require very expensive commercial diving operations. It may require short lifts for repositioning the locomotive before a final lift can be set up and executed.

If the objective were merely to obtain a steam locomotive for operational restoration, the cost of recovery would many times outweigh the value. So I think it best to just take it as it is, that being an historical artifact intact at the site with its story. That alone is a work of art.

The photos posted above indicate quite clear water. If the bottom is hard, the wreck will be mostly visible. With the skillful use of the state of the art underwater cameras and best possible lighting, in the season of the clearest water, the entire wreck could be captured in every detail.

I do not know what is being planned by the film crew that is mentioned. But if it were taken to the extent I have described with underwater imaging, and combined with the best narrative possible, it would be the best purpose for this wreck and its story. Although aside from an actual recovery, this level of photography alone would be incredibly expensive.


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