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 Post subject: Re: Film crew producing TV show about sunken train
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:34 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:13 pm
Posts: 57
I had a good chat with the Producer a couple of days ago, it seems like this will be a very good series. They've really done their homework, have interviewed all the right people and have gone to great lengths to ensure they 'get the story right'. Cudos to Mr. Wilke and his crew.

As for salvaging the 3512 et all...I'm of the opinion to let sleeping dogs lay. Yes it would be fascinating to see the equipment raised, stabilized and displayed - BUT - the multi million dollar questions have to be asked such as A) Who is going to foot the bill? B) Who is going to claim ownership? C)Where are the items going to be displayed? D)Who is going to do the work? E) Most importantly - What is the point of raising it?

To be blunt, there is nothing really special down there that is not preserved and on display in other locations. Honestly, I would rather see the money that would be spent on salvaging this group of equipment spent on other (more easily accessible) pieces that are in greater danger of decay and disposition. Take 3512's closest living 'sister', the 3522 on display in Beinfate, Saskatchewan. A fraction of the money spent on salvaging the 3512 would go a helluva long way on helping preserve this loco. Just my 2 cents, YMMV.

Image

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Best answer to the Canadian Pacific fireman's exam question (found in the company archives)- What is steam? - "Steam? That's just water that's gone crazy with the heat."


Last edited by RoyalwithCheese on Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Film crew producing TV show about sunken train
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:57 pm 

Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:56 pm
Posts: 185
Location: Ontario, Canada.
Fromage Royale,
In full agreement with you.
There have been a couple of steam traction engines raised from lakes, and most agreed, after the fact, that they might as well have been left where they were.
The dollars, as you say, would be better spent stabilizing, or building canopies over display locomotives. It has been a few years since I saw No. 3522. It needed a lot of attention then.
CNR/CGR 2-10-2 was leaning badly at Rainy River a few years back. Now it has been stabilized, painted, and a very nice canopy put over it. Worthy of the last survivor of that class! Congratulations to those involved in saving the engine.
Looking forward to the show though. I just hope it does not become like that silly Oak Island thing where they find a bent nail and say it could be dated back to Roman days! I tried watching a new episode of that last night, and thankfully fell asleep!


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 Post subject: Re: Film crew producing TV show about sunken train
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:55 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:13 pm
Posts: 57
GW, greetings from your neighbor to the West!

I'm fairly confident when this hits the airwaves it will not be anything close to the 'Oak Island' tripe. I'm not involved with this one, but the Producers have interviewed a lot of my colleagues over this in an effort to 'get it right'. The fellow who funded all this is very passionate about the story and steam era railroading in British Columbia in general. The subject matter is being treated with a lot of respect and everyone involved has a varying level of personal interest towards railway history so hopefully that shows through in the end.

As for letting sleeping dogs lay...the whole 'hook' over the 3512 story is that its still down there...Once you pull it up, that mystique is gone and you're left with an albatross of decaying objects that require extensive, expensive and specialized attention to stabilize, let alone repair. Don't forget - we're talking about a 98 ton locomotive that fell over 700' straight down and landed (as far as I can tell from the 1995 footage) upside down and nose first on a lakebed....no matter how soft the muddy bottom may be, there's bound to be some serious damage! If it were up to me, I'd leave it down there, play off the fact there's a 'train in the lake' and make a tourist visitor centre showcasing the ROV footage, display models of the train, info on Canadian Pacific's Slocan Lake operation, play a recorded interview with the colourful Mr. Chapman, ect. In my mind, that makes far more financial sense, would be easier economically to fund/develop/sustain and be a greater long-term draw for tourism to the area.

Speaking of things that were 'discovered' and salvage seemed a good idea at the time - but turned out disastrously, one only has to look at the sad case of the U-534. I'd hate to see something similar happen here.

Besides, if you pull it up, the fish won't have anything to look at anymore ;)

Again, just my two cents folks, YMMV

_________________
Best answer to the Canadian Pacific fireman's exam question (found in the company archives)- What is steam? - "Steam? That's just water that's gone crazy with the heat."


Last edited by RoyalwithCheese on Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Film crew producing TV show about sunken train
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:56 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:20 pm
Posts: 6
I beg to disagree, i say raise it! It doesn't matter that there are other engines of a similar type preserved, or that it is "mystical" from sitting down there (but i do agree that is a valid point to make). I think it oughta be raised and put on display, think about the story it will have, and that people will actually be able to see it for themselves! I say if someone has the funding to raise and restore it, all the power to them. I'd love to see it raised, and that is my sincerest wish for this engine..


Last edited by thebrantfordrailfan on Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Film crew producing TV show about sunken train
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:03 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:20 pm
Posts: 6
Also what position is the engine in? I've heard varying accounts, some say it is upside down, others that it is upright as if it were still on the rails. Can anyone provide some insight perhaps? And what kind of impact damage could she have? I've heard the pilot was bent but nothing else was mentioned.


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 Post subject: Re: Film crew producing TV show about sunken train
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:30 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 4297
Location: Maine
Pardon my foam (in a lake, no less) but I agree, if the money is available to raise this locomotive, then raise it. I wouldn't raise the whole train, nor the wooden caboose.
It's a steam locomotive, it fell 700 feet down, the images taken thus far appear to show it sitting in organic much, up to the catwalks. It was mentioned the fact the locomotive sank "is the hook". True enough - just like "Andrea Doria", "Lusitania", and "Titanic". People will want to see it and touch it and live the experience. As far as damage goes, display it as recovered, indoors, with a narrative of the story and plenty of exhibits explaining the technology, the mission, and the merging of two eras. I visited the British air museum some years back, where a recovered B-24 sat on a simulated seabed, just as it looked when discovered. There are good, ethical reasons for bringing such exhibits to light. Leaving it at the bottom of Slocan Lake leaves it lost to all but a few individuals.

Yes, there are plenty of park locomotives desperately needing a roof, paint, restoration and recovery, but this money has been allocated for this purpose alone. The people paying for the recovery likely aren't going to go running to find other orphans to adopt. This is not only fascinating, but will do more for education, enrichment, and inspiration, than is credited.

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 Post subject: Re: Film crew producing TV show about sunken train
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:34 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:20 pm
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I agree. As for the images, can anyone who has seen them, tell me what kind of shape 3512 is in, in terms of damage or what position she landed in? I just wonder how damaged she would be, i imagine it would only be minor things like handrails, "bits" etc, and not the strong core of the engine.


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 Post subject: Re: Film crew producing TV show about sunken train
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:04 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:13 pm
Posts: 57
I respect your opinion and I too would like to see everything salvaged and preserved, however the probability of this ever happening is practically nil. Even if you could overcome the logistics with financing, organizing and executing the salvage, preservation and display of the equipment there's an insurmountably expensive roadblock to be dealt with - The Government of Canada. Slocan Lake is protected by a nebulous myriad of both Federal and Provincial agencies, primarily Environment Canada on the Federal level and the Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural Resources on the Provincial level. If you want to salvage anything in the lake, you have to go through them. And they are going to want proof, in the form of Environmental Studies papers that lifting the locomotive et all will have zero impact on the ecosystem. Now that loco has been down there for 74 years in an already damaged, state slowly succumbing to the environment and loosing structural integrity. You try and lift that, I can guarantee a significant part of that jacket is going to come apart. And what's under that jacket? 3" thick sheets of 4'x8' chrysotile asbestos. The moment Environment Canada sees that in the report, your salvage project is dead in its tracks.

In regards to the locomotive's condition, I have seen the 1995 ROV footage. I have not seen the recent high-definition, colour footage. I respect the current expedition's efforts to produce their findings as a commercial venture so I will not in any way detract from it by blowing 'the big reveal' of the exact condition of the 3512. What I will say is this - it made a crater when it hit the bottom. A fully loaded M4g 2-8-0 weighs in around 196,000 lbs (98 tons), and this one fell 700' straight down. For comparison, imagine dropping a sealed soup can off of of a 7 story building onto a pillow. Not pretty. Everything else though seems to have survived the decent intact and landed relatively gently, including the van which appeared in the '95 footage to be virtually pristine.

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Best answer to the Canadian Pacific fireman's exam question (found in the company archives)- What is steam? - "Steam? That's just water that's gone crazy with the heat."


Last edited by RoyalwithCheese on Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Film crew producing TV show about sunken train
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:06 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:02 am
Posts: 6
This post won’t add much substance to the thread, but all I want to say is when I submitted it a few days ago I certainly didn’t expect it to garner this much attention. Lots of fascinating information!

Richard, I’m glad you reached out to the production team. I wanted to contact them myself for some more information regarding the show itself and to offer my best wishes but neglected to do so for one reason or the other. It’s obvious they’re as eager about this project as we are so I am very excited to see where it goes.


Last edited by j6677 on Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Film crew producing TV show about sunken train
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:04 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:20 pm
Posts: 6
Whatever shape she is in, and whether or not she gets recovered, i'm just glad to at least see 3512 getting some attention and for the opportunity to see it in detail. I am very grateful towards the team for taking on this project, i figured she would just sit down there forgotten forever. I sure do hope she gets recovered though, even if it's a slim chance, a slim chance is better than no chance. Be nice to see her even run again someday, imagine the tourist draw, of riding behind a steam train that spent over 70 years in a lake? (one can dream at least)


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 Post subject: Re: Film crew producing TV show about sunken train
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:33 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 4297
Location: Maine
Royal, thank you for your considerate and gracious reply with a differing opinion. This is how all discussions on this board should go. I agree with the jumping through hoops with Environment Canada and the B.C. government. Those are going to be the worst hurdle if this is to come off. The asbestos issue doesn't bother me too much, as asbestos is rock crystal fibers, naturally occurring, and it doesn't migrate through the earth. In 70 years, it has now become water saturated, so it behaves more like a clay or putty. I don't see this standing in the way. Neither should lubricant oil and grease. This is not fuel with oil, and what clings to the locomotive is basically refrigerated and thick. I doesn't see a huge issue in terms of pollution but it certainly can become one if EC or BC wish to make it such. Frankly, I'll cheer them on, but like restoring an old house, this will become increasingly expensive as new evidence comes to the surface (pun intended).

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 Post subject: Re: Film crew producing TV show about sunken train
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:14 am 

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:13 pm
Posts: 57
Richard, you hit the nail squarely on the head. I don't know how much experience you've had dealing with the Feds on Heritage projects, but its always a long, overly drawn out rodeo full of unexpected twists and turns that can leave you shaking your head. In my experience, when a well intended but ambitious venture funded by private sector capitol gets involved with Federal regulations, the sometimes bizarre and incredulous red tape bleeds the investors dry to the go-no go point and all that winds up happening is money lost coupled with hard feelings. Sad but true..

In the case of the asbestos lagging, I agree with you. Its waterlogged, its a mineral and it's 700+ feet under water. Even if it gets disturbed and explodes into a ball of white dust in front of the cameras, you and I both know it will settle out and not hurt anyone, but Environment Canada will not see it that way, let alone the myriad of other regulatory bodies that cover the lake. And all it takes is one of those departments to raise a concern and squash the whole thing. I'm not worried about the coal or lubricants, but hell, somebody could ask if the paint is lead based and if you respond with 'most likely' -boom- someone will request another environmental impact study that eats up a whole bunch more time/money. Having been down this road, this is why I said the best thing is to leave it down there and make a visitor center (creates income taxable jobs + brings in tourist $ to the area = happy Government).

Anyhow, good conversation by everyone! I'm excited this crew has taken on the challenge and is raising awareness of this unique story. We'll get to see some facinating footage from the bottom of a lake in full HD colour, meet some interesting characters and learn about steam era operations in British Columbia - all from the comfort of our homes! Regardless of what ever happens to the wreck of the 3512, either way I'd say this upcoming documentary is an exciting win-win for everyone!

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Best answer to the Canadian Pacific fireman's exam question (found in the company archives)- What is steam? - "Steam? That's just water that's gone crazy with the heat."


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 Post subject: Re: Film crew producing TV show about sunken train
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:15 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:05 pm
Posts: 1096
Find it, document it, leave it there. Spend the money on the many under funded preservation projects in BC.


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 Post subject: Sinking rate
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:43 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:51 pm
Posts: 154
Location: Eastern Pennsylvania
RoyalwithCheese wrote:
What I will say is this - it made a crater when it hit the bottom. A fully loaded M4a 2-8-0 weighs in around 60 tons, and this one fell 700' straight down. For comparison, imagine dropping a full soup can off of of a 7 story building onto a pillow. Not pretty. Everything else though seems to have survived the decent intact and landed relatively gently, including the van which appeared in the '95 footage to be virtually pristine.


I have no opinion of leaving it down, or raising it up, but I am curious about the actual process of sinking. Specifically, I'm curious if there might be some buoyancy in the locomotive, due to a boiler being sort of hollow and sealed?

Yeah, I know it's mostly filled with water, but I am a bit curious if there would be a bit of buoyancy which would have slowed the descent rate. Probably not, since it weighs so much!

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 Post subject: Re: Film crew producing TV show about sunken train
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:40 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:05 pm
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The firebox, tubes and smokebox would fill with water rapidly. The small part of the boiler not full of water would provide a very small amount of boency but wouldn't slow the fall to any extent. It would sink at just under 32 feet per second per second.


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