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 Post subject: Re: Survey - Women in Rail Preservation
PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:19 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 6400
Location: southeastern USA
OK, GIGO> Can we agree that not every old guy believes this nonsense, and not every organization is entirely composed of them? Then maybe we can move along into some constructive discussion....... the old guys who do think so and don't think so are disappearing anyhow.

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 Post subject: Re: Survey - Women in Rail Preservation
PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:31 pm 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
Posts: 1543
RCD wrote:
Ron Travis wrote:
Crescent-Zephyr wrote:
The organizations that are filled with the “old guys” who say things like “women don’t belong in a steam locomotive” I’m going to guess those organizations will die off.



There are no organizations filled with old guys who say, “Women don’t belong in a steam locomotive.” What is your source for such a claim?

A certin rypn troublemaker said so earlier in the thread.


One person saying women don't belong on a steam locomotive does not mean that organizations are filled with such persons. And it does not even mean that the one person you refer to has done anything to actually keep women off of steam locomotives.


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 Post subject: Re: Survey - Women in Rail Preservation
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:12 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 2561
Location: Strasburg, PA
NVPete wrote:
The cool thing about the bait bucket is I don't see any suns, moons, or other celestial bodies printed on the label so I guess anyone can use it.

Actually, you could easily hide one of those things inside of a carefully crafted, period correct-appearing fireman's seat pedestal. Just lift the cushion and off you go!!!
Linn told me once about how he could have used one of those on one of George Hart's death march trips with #972. After eating something that disagreed with him, he spent a good portion of the trip in the coal pile with his overalls around his ankles, getting dirty looks from the fireman. "Lots of overpasses on that route" he said...


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 Post subject: Re: Survey - Women in Rail Preservation
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:25 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2726
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
The other day someone asked me why it was so difficult to get more people interested and involved in preservation.

I simply directed them to read this thread and how it quickly degraded I then asked would an outsider still be interested in becoming involved in preservation after reading some of the pontifications from so-called experts?

I don't need to sit here and bloviate about my personal journey to awareness or the like, but I do realize that none of our respective organizations seem to have an over-abundance of volunteer or paid labor these days. Trying to find people interested in our nice interest group is challenging enough without self-limiting who we would welcome.

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 Post subject: Re: Survey - Women in Rail Preservation
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:20 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
Posts: 1899
Location: Youngstown, OH
wilkinsd wrote:
The other day someone asked me why it was so difficult to get more people interested and involved in preservation.

I simply directed them to read this thread and how it quickly degraded I then asked would an outsider still be interested in becoming involved in preservation after reading some of the pontifications from so-called experts?

I don't need to sit here and bloviate about my personal journey to awareness or the like, but I do realize that none of our respective organizations seem to have an over-abundance of volunteer or paid labor these days. Trying to find people interested in our nice interest group is challenging enough without self-limiting who we would welcome.


This thread is 8 pages long yet is still a civil conversation. It has not devolved at all. Human interactions of substance are often messy. I do not see where anyone is "self limiting" who they welcome but I do see some refuse to treat groups of people different based on immutable characteristics, which is the proper thing to do.

The real reasons why it is difficult to get people interested is not limited to our industry, but is felt across the board in many nonprofits. Social media is a huge factor in conditioning people away from face to face human interaction to virtual interactions. You can get your fill of talking with your friends and get up to date on the latest happenings without leaving your home, so why not just do that?

A second reason is time. Many people who would be competent, valuable volunteers are working everyday and do not have much free time anymore. Our culture is a great one for filling up people's every waking moment with activities in a way that creates a lot of competition for the few unscheduled waking hours that are left.

A third reason is that people are moving away from working with their hands, and rail preservation is very much an old school hands on activity. On the maintenance and preservation end of things, it is getting harder to find people who have been exposed to working with tools and equipment to the extent needed to not become a danger to themselves or others if turned loose on a hands on activity. So if someone doesn't feel competent to work with tools they won't volunteer to do it for fear of displaying their incompetence and may decide just to stay home and scroll through Facebook one more time. And those who are competent with tools, well they are not here because reason No. 2. Anyone who can use tools and has a bit of a work ethic is out there working.

Reason no. 4 may be that as our schools take a radial left turn at education, Many young people view railroading itself as polluting, oppressive and racist. Steam locomotives burn coal, a fuel that is hated in pop culture. Even diesel fuel isn't tolerated much anymore. Those machines create visible emissions that they are convinced is killing the planet. Railroads are representative of capitalism, another foundation of America that is under attack and being portrayed as oppressing people in the name of profit. Then there is the history of railroads that includes the use of Chinese labor to build the transcontinental railroad. Now for those of us who know history, we can appreciate nuance and place that episode in its proper context, but we are dealing with people who believe in cancel culture, the idea that the smallest sleight is enough to permanently destroy someone's life. Good luck trying to get young people to touch a train with a 40 foot pole after they have been fully indoctrinated in the public school system.

We have BIG problems ahead of us. Not just this industry but the entire country. Its time that we recognize the predicament that we find ourselves in.

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 Post subject: Re: Survey - Women in Rail Preservation
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:31 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 11482
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
Rick Rowlands wrote:
Then there is the history of railroads that includes the use of Chinese labor to build the transcontinental railroad.


You left out the greedy "rail barons," the "fat cats" of that "evil" capitalism.

Smart educators, from museum docents to authors, have made the point that the railroads were to the 1800s what the internet is today: it changed people's lives, commerce, finance, and more.


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 Post subject: Re: Survey - Women in Rail Preservation
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:41 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 2561
Location: Strasburg, PA
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
Smart educators, from museum docents to authors, have made the point that the railroads were to the 1800s what the internet is today: it changed people's lives, commerce, finance, and more.
Bill Withuhn had a good version of that while at the Smithsonian. Some school group was going through, and a kid pointed ar Southern #1401 and asked the teacher, "What's that?" After the teacher sputtered and stuttered over what to say, Bill broke in and said, "That was the Boeing 747 of its day."

I always liked that story.


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 Post subject: Re: Survey - Women in Rail Preservation
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:57 pm 

Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:41 pm
Posts: 32
So if social media and discouraging of face to face interactions is part of what is hurting the industry, should tourist lines double down on encouraging those personal interactions? To put up something like a virtual rail fan camera is beyond asinine if one is seeking customers to show up. Those things encourage people to stay home and be arm chair tourists. I've personally heard gripes when people who actually pay for vrf (why they do is beyond me) are unable to watch the cameras when they are blacked out or turned away for private events.


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 Post subject: Re: Survey - Women in Rail Preservation
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:16 am 

Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 11:28 pm
Posts: 90
Rick. I went to public school in one of the most liberal cities in the US for my entire life.

Not once did anyone, ever say that trains were polluting, oppressive or racist. Not my teacher, not any of my friend's teachers. Not my little brother's teachers.

I'm curious as to what school district is teaching a radical-left anti train curriculum. If you'd be so kind as to back that up?

Anyway - the idea that the lack of new folks showing up for rail museums is just a symptom of The Times or something completely unchangeable isn't true, at all. I know people in my broad age group (18-28~) who work at museums. The resounding statements i get from them is that they feel the older folks look down on them and don't really want anything to get done.

Hell - one can see it in your post. You're assuming literally everyone under the age of ~30 believes in cancel culture or whatever, or doesn't like working with their hands etc. Like, how many gen-z'ers have you actually met?

Also - teaching about rail barons is like, absolutely necessary to understand the shift to reform and trust-busting. Would you perfer that part of history remain unsaid?


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 Post subject: Re: Survey - Women in Rail Preservation
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:04 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm
Posts: 1477
Connie4800 wrote:
l
Anyway - the idea that the lack of new folks showing up for rail museums is just a symptom of The Times or something completely unchangeable isn't true, at all. I know people in my broad age group (18-28~) who work at museums. The resounding statements i get from them is that they feel the older folks look down on them and don't really want anything to get done.

Hell - one can see it in your post. You're assuming literally everyone under the age of ~30 believes in cancel culture or whatever, or doesn't like working with their hands etc. Like, how many gen-z'ers have you actually met?


That’s been my experience as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Survey - Women in Rail Preservation
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:01 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:10 am
Posts: 2499
Connie4800 wrote:
Anyway - the idea that the lack of new folks showing up for rail museums is just a symptom of The Times or something completely unchangeable isn't true, at all. I know people in my broad age group (18-28~) who work at museums. The resounding statements i get from them is that they feel the older folks look down on them and don't really want anything to get done.


Yep, I said it earlier in the thread and I will say it again. GenZ is already an outstanding generation. I wouldn't be surprised if history finds them to be the next "Greatest Generation."

I am a GenX 'er. I have mentored and worked with many Millennials and GenZs. Neither group was ever as bad as Boomer and GenX media made them out to be. Generations always think they are better than the ones that follow. All that recent hogwash is just the modern version "get off my lawn, you darn kids."

However, something is changing. I have had more than a few conversations lately among fellow X'ers who see GenZ as the generation to watch - and to stay in tune with (figuratively and literally, they have some great music).

In the spirit of the OP's question, my experience has shown that GenZ comes well educated with higher expectations of fair and equal treatment. That's their baseline. They value ethnicity and culture, while expecting equal opportunities. And if a group or company fails to meet that baseline, GenZ will let them know by speaking up or tuning them out. They have a very low tolerance for anything that reeks of "well, we've always done it that way, grow a thick skin."

And - to tie this directly to Nick's original post - they are far less burdened by traditional gender roles (and race roles, etc.). Therefore, their expectations of what women can and should do will run afoul of preconceived notions from another era.

An advisory council of GenZ volunteers could be a real eye-opener to many museums. Hmmm... that gives me an idea...

Rob

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 Post subject: Re: Survey - Women in Rail Preservation
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:10 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:02 am
Posts: 23
robertjohndavis wrote:
An advisory council of GenZ volunteers could be a real eye-opener to many museums. Hmmm... that gives me an idea...


Absolutely not. Don't you know that every single young person today is a brainwashed, lazy herd follower? How dare you cloud this thread with solid facts and reasonable talking points!

In all seriousness, today's society is not frightening and your post exemplifies why it's unfair to assume that. What's frightening are the wrong takes blindly accepted by people with no reasoning behind them. It goes both ways.


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 Post subject: Re: Survey - Women in Rail Preservation
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:21 pm 

Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 11:28 pm
Posts: 90
I'm not sure a council - just a bit of impact, listening, and mutual respect.

As a gen-z "zoomer" - and an avid railfan - even my friends who aren't specifically into trains think they're vaguely cool.


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 Post subject: Re: Survey - Women in Rail Preservation
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:58 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
Posts: 1899
Location: Youngstown, OH
Connie4800 wrote:
Rick. I went to public school in one of the most liberal cities in the US for my entire life.

Not once did anyone, ever say that trains were polluting, oppressive or racist. Not my teacher, not any of my friend's teachers. Not my little brother's teachers.

I'm curious as to what school district is teaching a radical-left anti train curriculum. If you'd be so kind as to back that up?

Anyway - the idea that the lack of new folks showing up for rail museums is just a symptom of The Times or something completely unchangeable isn't true, at all. I know people in my broad age group (18-28~) who work at museums. The resounding statements i get from them is that they feel the older folks look down on them and don't really want anything to get done.

Hell - one can see it in your post. You're assuming literally everyone under the age of ~30 believes in cancel culture or whatever, or doesn't like working with their hands etc. Like, how many gen-z'ers have you actually met?

Also - teaching about rail barons is like, absolutely necessary to understand the shift to reform and trust-busting. Would you perfer that part of history remain unsaid?


My post is quite understandable and stands on its own. I was speaking in broad generalities to make a few points, which anyone can see. Are you sure that your education in that liberal city really served you very well?

While there is no specific anti-train curriculum, I can recognize trends and can see the linkages between what railroading represents and how that can be interpreted. That post consisted of my thoughts on the matter. Don't be so naïve to think that we can remain isolated from the broader culture and not be affected by it.

I am not assuming that EVERYONE under 30 believes in cancel culture. You made that up and then assigned that to me. You might be surprised to hear that we welcome younger people to take an active part in the operation of the J&L Narrow Gauge and that most of our members are in the 20 to 30 age range. A couple of our members come here because they do not particularly feel welcomed at other organizations with those older people that you referred to. We are all a team here, work well together and enjoy ourselves while preserving and operating historic rail equipment. I am sure they would agree with me with the reasons as to why we have challenges with attracting new people, because they see it too.

So if you disagree with some of my assertions, then rebut them using facts and reason. So far I have not seen any factual rebuttals to the reasons that I gave.

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 Post subject: Re: Survey - Women in Rail Preservation
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:49 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:34 pm
Posts: 2758
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Don't worry about the younger generation - they have a very healthy interest in railways. Ignorance about railways really does not have an age factor.

There is a group on Facebook called "New Urbanist Memes for Transit-Oriented Teens", and it has over 218 thousand members, and you would be surprised at the level of knowledge they have about public transport and railways.

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