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 Post subject: Why was the last of Rio Grande Narrow Gauge not regauged?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:34 pm 

Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:40 pm
Posts: 42
When I say "The Last" I refer to the whole narrow gauge network readiating from Salida to Durango, Montrose, Santa Fe, etc.

I understand in the case of the line to Durango because regauging Cumbres Pass would have been a living hell, but what about the others? Was it due to the costs?


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 Post subject: Re: Why was the last of Rio Grande Narrow Gauge not regauged
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:00 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 2:46 pm
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Location: Pac NW, via North Florida
There were plenty of places along the old D&RGW that either couldn't handle the size (as in tunnels too short or right of way too narrow), or the weight on bridges for standard gauge. By the time anyone would have seen a real need to re-gauge these tracks, there were already roads and trucking companies...

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 Post subject: Re: Why was the last of Rio Grande Narrow Gauge not regauged
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:08 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
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The Tennessee Pass/ Royal Gorge line, now dormant but still in place, was originally narrow gauge.


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 Post subject: Re: Why was the last of Rio Grande Narrow Gauge not regauged
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:46 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:15 pm
Posts: 594
I actually recall it wasn’t really clearance issues but more along the lines of upfront costs in regauging it. At some point, I believe the D&RGW realized that it was probably not worth the cost of regauging the system given the traffic. My guess is that it was in the early 1920’s when they had decided it, when they made their more modern 2-8-2’s.

If you recall, the Farmington Branch from Durango CO to Farmington NM was built in 1905 and it was standard gauge. Isolated from the rest of the system. By the mid 1920’s they had converted the Farmington branch to narrow gauge.

If the proposed Gallup NM to Farmington NM line the Santa Fe wanted to build was ever made, at the very least I believe the San Juan extension (Antonio to Durango) would’ve been converted at some point, as it would’ve made it a thru line. Probably would still exist in full today given the industry around Farmington (heck they still have proposals to guilt a line from Gallup to Farmington now).

As for the original D&RGW mainline from Salida to Montrose via Gunnison, it also would’ve been a different story had the line continued west out of Montrose to Salt Lake City and Ogden instead of having the main line go through Grand Junction. But that line, especially the Gunnison to Montrose section was notoriously troublesome. I forget the exact reason why but that section never had any of the larger locomotives operating over it.


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 Post subject: Re: Why was the last of Rio Grande Narrow Gauge not regauged
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:52 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:06 am
Posts: 329
From an economic standpoint consider that re-gauging the mainline was only a portion of the costs. You would need to re-gauge/replace the rolling stock, motive power, turntables, roundhouses, other servicing facilities, loadouts, customer interchanges. It mounts up pretty quickly.......mld


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 Post subject: Re: Why was the last of Rio Grande Narrow Gauge not regauged
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:22 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
Posts: 1398
Location: Philadelphia, PA
It's my understanding the EBT made do with narrow gauge because most of its freight was online. The coal went raw from the mines to a washer in Mt. Union, then was reloaded into standard gauge cars; the ganister rock had an online customer. Incoming RR gauge loads could be placed on NG trucks and taken where they had to go.

Interesting how the meaning of "online" has changed.

So: how much of the D&RGW freight had to be transloaded from one gauge to the other? I think a lot of it walked on and off the cars and you needed to water the cattle anyway.

Come to think of it, isn't/wasn't there a refinery in Alamosa?

Phil Mulligan


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 Post subject: Re: Why was the last of Rio Grande Narrow Gauge not regauged
PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:52 am 

Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:47 pm
Posts: 164
Location: Arizona
From 1950 onward most the D&RGW's narrow gauge freight was related to the gas field development in the Farmington area. All of this freight came into Alamosa on standard gauge cars and was transfered to narrow gauge.

There were still a few lumber mills shipping outbound cut lumber that had to be transfered to standard gauge cars in Alamosa. In Chama, an oil field shipped carloads of crude to a refinery in Alamosa intil 1964.

The Rio Grande always figured that this traffic would dry up and easy abandonment would follow. It just took longer than they planned for.

Starting in the 1930's the Rio Grande planned to be a bridge carrier with no branch lines - standard or narrow gauge. They developed their own trucking subsidiary to handle local traffic and replace the branches. The lack of decent roads kept the narrow gauge open year-round until the refinery closed in 1964. After this, the Rio Grande would close the RR down in the winter and divert the traffic to thier trucking subsidiary.

The development of the larger locomotives was an attempt to cut thier losses by being able to run decent sized trains over the road. Starting in the 1920's the D&RGW claimed they lost money running the narrow gauge.

In the abandonment hearings it was determined that the area needed a railroad. It needed a modern one, not a steam powered narrow gauge antique.


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 Post subject: Re: Why was the last of Rio Grande Narrow Gauge not regauged
PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:18 pm 

Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:18 pm
Posts: 540
Location: Illinois
The question isn't to ask why the Rio Grande NG wasn't regauged - the question to ask is how did it last as long as it did. The vast majority of the NG - especially the western end of it - would have been gone by the late 1930s if radioactive isotopes hadn't been found in the old mines on the line. The US government then kept these lines operating during World War II as it needed uranium and other radioactive ores for its Hanniford and Oak Ridge plants. If you look at 1940s pictures of rolling stock, such as the Galloping Goose, you see stenciled on the doors that the service is being provided by the US DoD. And, these lines operated through geography that made them very hard to operate, especially in the winter, such as Cumbres Pass. By the 1930s, if not earlier, Rio Grande knew the future would be in the lines thorough Tennessee Pass and Moffat Tunnel, not through Salida or Montrose. And, it the 1930s it was very hard to abandon lines due to the mail and local service they provided, especially to isolated mountain towns.


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 Post subject: Re: Why was the last of Rio Grande Narrow Gauge not regauged
PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:33 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 2560
Location: Strasburg, PA
TheDukeofDank wrote:
When I say "The Last" I refer to the whole narrow gauge network readiating from Salida to Durango, Montrose, Santa Fe, etc.

I understand in the case of the line to Durango because regauging Cumbres Pass would have been a living hell, but what about the others? Was it due to the costs?
Montrose did get standard gauged to Grand Junction fairly early. By rights, Marshall pass between Salida and Gunnison was a tougher climb than Cumbres, being 4% on both sides. Cerro Summit, west of Gunnison was also a member of the 4% club.
In addition to the 4% grades, I believe that all of the passes had curves too tight to be practical for standard gauge operations, so any regauging would have to come with a lot of regrading, realignment, and grade reduction. Ka-ching! Not worth it for lines with borderline traffic in the first place.
ctjacks wrote:
The question isn't to ask why the Rio Grande NG wasn't regauged - the question to ask is how did it last as long as it did.
Post WWII, I'd say that the oil boom causing the Rio Grande to haul hundreds of trains of pipe to Farmington, is what allowed what is now the C&TS to last until 1968 and be saved. Absent that pipe, I would expect that the line over Cumbres Pass would have been abandoned in the early '50's along with the RGS and the Marshall Pass line.


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 Post subject: Re: Why was the last of Rio Grande Narrow Gauge not regauged
PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:34 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:47 pm
Posts: 164
Location: Arizona
Kelly's point is correct. If it hadn't been for the pipe traffic materializing in the 1950's, the entire system would have been gone by the mid-1950's.

This was in fact the D&RGW's plan. With abandonement of key. but underperforming portions, the entire system could be weakened to the point of easy abandonment. The closing of the coal mines at Crested Butte sealed the Marshall Pass line. It was El Paso Natural Gas drilling in the San Juan Basin that saved the Alamosa-Durango-Farmington line from abandonment in the mid- 1950's. The D&RGW did everything they could to discourage traffic, it took an ICC directive to get the Rio Grande to do anything.


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 Post subject: Re: Why was the last of Rio Grande Narrow Gauge not regauged
PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:55 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:33 am
Posts: 187
In addition to what everyone has already said, its important to consider why the line was narrow gauge in the first place. The narrow gauge movement started in Wales on lines such as the Ffestiniog and the Talyllyn, slate tramways converted to steam hauled railroads. Fairlie's double ended engines wowed railroad officials all over, and among the converts was General Palmer who went on to build the original Denver & Rio Grande (even buying a Vulcan built Fairlie for the route which was stolen by the ATSF during the Royal Gorge War).

In addition several other western US narrow gauge systems cropped up at this time, notably the Utah Northern. When the Rio Grande system connected to the Utah Northern for a brief time there was a narrow gauge connection from Butte Montana down through Ogden and Salt Lake, into Colorado then down to Denver as a single sleeper car train. A train could then be taken down the Chili line all the way to Santa Fe on narrow gauge. For a brief moment it may have seemed like a very really possibility that there may have been a transcontinental narrow gauge network, especially had the future Western Pacific been built when it was first proposed. Other lines such as the Utah ones that connected to the Utah Northern like the Utah Western or isolated lines such as the Eureka & Palisade show how narrow gauge was gripping the west.

But the limits of narrow gauge and its issues began to show its flaws, so in time the Utah Northern was taken over by Union Pacific and standard gauged as part of the Oregon Shortline. For the Rio Grande, when the railroads were separated at Grand Junction and General Palmer took control of the Utah segment as the Rio Grande Western, his standard gauge project happened fast and without hesitation. The Denver and Rio Grande eventually followed suit, and when the D&RG finally built the Western Pacific it was a standard gauge line from day one.

So once the western and eastern Rio Grande were merged back into a unified Denver and Rio Grande Western, its important to notice it was an ad hoc system that started out as narrow gauge but then developed independently into two standard gauge networks before reuniting. So... the Narrow Gauge Circle was a vote of a lack of confidence in those lines connecting to the San Juan extension. Had it been more profitable or with higher traffic volumes they would have standard gauged it with the rest of their system. Certainly its a thought that crossed their minds, the Farmington Branch was built standard gauge from the start but once it became clear that the San Juan was never going to be standard gauged it was then converted to narrow gauge for compatibility with the rest of the isolated network.

So yeah, simply put it was an isolated system the DRGW had more interest in abandoning then to keep running. But the discovery of uranium ore, then later oil forced them to keep it running all the same as others have already said; but rather than waste resources on the route to modernize it they just left the old steamers to keep running there. Then the 1950's western fad brought Hollywood to town, the tourist rates spiked on the Silverton Branch and when the San Juan extension from Antonito to Chama was finally about to be abandoned a bi-state commission stepped in and well the rest is history.


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 Post subject: Re: Why was the last of Rio Grande Narrow Gauge not regauged
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:40 pm 

Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:16 am
Posts: 767
Has anyone considered that the regauging of the narrow gauge would result in more expense than the resulting profits could cover. First the Farmington branch was built on an SP survey by the Rio Grande to Block the SP. Why an SP survey? Because of copper and copper smelting. The influence of a little mining company called Phelps, Dodge and Co, had a great impact on the region. The US Congress did a study Departure of Rates published Rates by the A.T. & S. F. involving coal shipments. P.D. had coal in the Durango area and the SP had surveyed a line into Durango from their sunset main. The UP also owned coal in the area. In the mean time Phelps Dodge found his coal elsewhere aka Dawson New Mexico, that was metallurgical grade. Since the Rio had built on an SP surveyed line the result was lawsuits. These lasted until for several years. The Book El Paso & Southwestern System by Vernon Glover covers this part of the story.

Now the bond issue that was initially proposed for Moffat Tunnel included Monanch and Cumbres Passes. If this had passed what would have happened? In the end what traffic is west of the passes west of the Narrow gauge? Most of the D&RG/ D&RGW existence the traffic from these sections was minimal. A single K class locomotive could handle any freight train west of Chama. The actives at Crested Butte and Monarch were related to the operation of Colorado Fuel and Iron. In the end the remaining Narrow Gauge just did not create a lot of business. The bridges and tunnels were not the big obsticals but the lack of revenue was.

Robby Peartree


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 Post subject: Re: Why was the last of Rio Grande Narrow Gauge not regauged
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:30 pm 

Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:13 pm
Posts: 95
Does any survey exists that shows the proposed routes if either tunnel were to be built?


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 Post subject: Re: Why was the last of Rio Grande Narrow Gauge not regauged
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:17 am 

Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:47 pm
Posts: 164
Location: Arizona
There were a couple of proposed routes for the Cumbres Tunnel. One was to bore into the mountain near Osier and come out north of Chama near Lobato.

The second one was more of a Wolf Creek Pass Tunnel, that would have the main line go up the Creede Branch to South Fork, then continue west for an undetermined distance, then tunnel under the Continental Divide, emerging on the San Juan River east of Pagosa Springs. The new route would follow the San Juan River to where it met up with the exisiting railroad near Juanita, and continue to Durango.

The second option was the greater expense, but it would have eliminated Cumbres Pass, as well as the Continental Divide crossing west of Chama. The ruling grade would have been the 2% climb out of Durango. The rest of the railroad would have been less than 1.5%.


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 Post subject: Re: Why was the last of Rio Grande Narrow Gauge not regauged
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:37 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 2560
Location: Strasburg, PA
Wow! How long would those tunnels have been?


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