[quote="superheater"]I think we have unreasonable expectations of 18 year olds, assuming that they can plot the direction of their lives, when they are so damn dumb or you have no idea what's going to happen in your life or the world.

My wife is an RN. She initially ended wanted to get a computer science degree, but ended up with a biology degree. She was working in biotech/virology in Philly and not exactly fulfilled, but had a real insight when she witnessed a stabbing and realized she was more a country mouse, she quit her job, went back to the Bloomsburg area, tended bar (where we met the first time, it's not often your pretty bartender uses the word "congeal" and that just added to the allure of that almost copper main-I was an eager customer) and got a BSN. She tried desperately to get a job in NEPA, but eventually moved down 81. Now for the past 20 plus years, she's been a nurse. Two degrees, but constantly dealing with non-compliant diabetics and drug seekers, relatives eager to show how they care by being demanding and hostile and yes on occasion, stinky poop. She misses every other Christmas and Thanksgiving. One year, she was scheduled for 2-12 hour shifts, back to back, Christmas Eve and Christmas day.

I went to Penn State with three major choices: Mechanical Engineering, Forestry and Accounting. In Freshman orientation, I was confident that I'd be the one of three remaining next year. Little did I know that when they assigned problems 1-39, I wasn't so smart that I could do the first three or five and "get it". I really didn't see a lot of employment ads for foresters, so I started taking accounting. But when I took finance and econ, my grades shot up. I just loved the material. I didn't have to study, it was recreational reading. I went from accounting to finance to economics.

But then reality set in. When I graduated, there weren't all the banking jobs I thought there'd be, and they paid crap. I was offered $9500 in the fall of 1984 as a credit analyst trainee. I thought whoopee-freaking doo, a whole 1.30 over the 3.35 minimum. Given the decades long consolidation of banking, glad not to be there.

After I got out, I sold floor tile, then insurance, tried to manage a Burger King. Then Prudential called in 1989. I thought this was my forever job. I did accounting, IT QA and pension compliance. Once they announced the demutualization, people started getting let go. I joined them in 1999. If being an econ major is unfocused, being a pension analyst is a mile deep and an inch wide.

Without knowing how I'd ever get the experience, I took the CPA. A succession of different jobs-one ended when the business was sold in 2002 courtesy of 9/11. Since I interviewed in the WTC in 2000, all in all losing a job was ok. I took a job as a healthcare auditor in 2002, and by chance ended up rediscovering my old girlfriend from 1992-1993. I ended up doing a stint at KPMG, but that's not a job for 40 year olds or the newly married. So I went back to government, and it was lucky I did because in 2006, my apparently health 38 year old sister had an internal hemorrhage and died. I wouldn't have been able to help my family-and my grandmother would lose her other granddaughter in 2011, before she passed ten years ago.

I "only" graduated with $12K in debt, and I still remember writing a check for $136.53 every month. My first year at Penn State: $1416 for the whole year. Today, it's ten to fifteen times that much-depending on campus, etc.

My coworker was a credit union president pulling in enough to raise three kids with a stay-at-home wife. He lost his job, and ended making a fraction of what he was making. His wife has an education degree and to make ends meet, she was on a production line. She's doing something else now, but it's still not great money.

I look at success now much differently than I did when I stepped out of Rec Hall in May of 1985, aspiring "yuppie scum". I thought I'd get an MBA (I did, but only because Pru paid) and become a CFO some place.

My niece is a college freshman. Her Dad's employer just gave him a plant closure notice. I can help her with her tuition. Dumb luck kept me from being worm food. I'm doing ok.

But Kelly, you spent decades making people happy. You did great.

I have no damn idea what the current scenario is, but when I was learning foreign languages, one aspect of the education was an education into the language's home nation's culture.

I learned that in the German school system, you were "tracked" beginning at age 10 to 12 into one of several educational tracks, described aptly at:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education ... _education
Or here: https://www.studying-in-germany.org/ger ... on-system/

These include the equivalent of a college prep school, a non-college-prep grammar school, vocational education, and more. And you're pretty much stuck there.
American public and private education also puts students into school courses based on aptitude testing, but Americans with no experiences with European or other foreign education often seem shocked at the idea of forcing children into such "tracks" at such an "early" age.

Yet those are supposed to be the educational models we are to "envy."

This floated across my feed this evening:

"How the Diploma Divide Is Remaking American Politics: Education is at the heart of this country’s many divisions."

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/10 ... class.html

If you cast aside a focus on political party labels, there's a lot of food for thought in this lengthy article concerning the changing socio-philosophical trends and how they affect not just politics, but such things as attitudes toward education, philanthropy, etc.

I hate to say this, but the thread is diverging farther and farther from 'preservation'. (Or true blue-collar education and 'cadre'-building).

Where is the "historic preservation" college track that contains a detailed discussion of the techniques needed to build, or repair, or manage teams?

Oh man Kelly, it sounds like she had a similar experience to me. I think it's a real bummer that programs like AMST do a terrible job of explaining to their students about "how do you do something with this?"

I see this across a lot of academia: as bad as high school guidance counselors may be, universities are almost as bad. Sure, if you major in civil engineering there are people who can help you with internships, but in less "hard" subjects there's just not that same support.

I know a number of people in the Martech space that have similar useless degrees to mine: my old boss majored in poetry at an art school, his boss had a degree in medieval literature.

But their career path was anything but a straight line from graduation to being VP at a digital agency, and that's something that I think universities are not very good at helping graduates with.

From that standpoint, technical education providers do a MUCH better job. You study machining and they can help you get a good job as a machinist. Study HVAC and they can hook you up with HVAC companies. It's a much straighter shot there.

The big problem is that it's all such a gamble that individuals have to bet on with such poor information.

Back to Kelly's original point: anything that can help folks get better information when they make those initial bets is definitely a good thing.

Museum Studies. Typically graduate-level.

The argument I have heard--and I'm not truly in a position to evaluate its merits--is that the "free market" of jobs/business changes faster than the stoic, "ivory tower" academia can adjust to catch up. In that way, it sounds comparable to the historical cliche of "we've always done it this way" "conservative" railroad operation and management.

I could suggest that there are jobs and career tracks out there that the traditional academic environment has yet to grasp or fathom--"what's a 'digital agency'?" What major does one take to develop the next Facebook, or Tinder, or MeWe, or develop revenue streams from cell phone apps or YouTube videos? I can take all the film instruction or music or photography or writing courses a university offers, but how do I make that pay in an era when AI (artificial intelligence) is now creating "art" and "music" to command that can't be distinguished from human-created art?

This gets back to the theme of universities that are supposed to be teaching how to think critically and innovate with an open mind, instead of teaching what to think.

To the people who read this board and who are at an age where they are faced with these sorts of decisions that are being discussed, I am offering my very limited experience.

1. When I was at an age where these issues where relevant to me personally, most of the adults I knew in my family and community were what would be considered blue-collar workers. Most of them were in a profession not by choice but because of the circumstance they grew up in and the limited opportunities they had. So all I heard was "be a doctor" or "be a lawyer".
2. The guidance counselors at my high school were mostly gym teachers who did not feel like moving around too much any more and many of the science and math teachers who were males went into the sciences and math to avoid the draft.
3. As a result, career guidance was slim to none.
4. Fast forward to when my offspring were middle school age I gave them a piece of paper and a pen and told them to draw a vertical line down the center. In the left column I told them to list all of the activities they enjoyed or thought they would enjoy. In the right column I told them to list anyone they know of or any jobs/careers they could imagine that entailed making money doing any of the activities or anything similar to the activites in the left column.
5. I then told them to talk to as many people as they could about these careers as a way to find out more and to force them to develop their professional networking skills.
6. They both are now doing well in careers they really like.

A few general suggestions/observations.
1. Colleges and Universities are marketed like a can of soup. Do not buy into the hype. So many of my kids' peers seemed to truly believe that if they did not get into school X that their life would be ruined. There are many paths to success, which leads to:
2. I have a now (very happily) retired former boss who just always did what he liked, who created and sold a couple of companies, and who has enough money to set up his family for generations. One day when I was young I was fretting about my career in his office and he gave me the best career advice I ever received. He said, "In a career you have to be content with the drunken stumble in life. You can't control all the turns your life will take but as long as you continue to stumble forward you'll be fine."
3. The corollary to this that you do not have to find the perfect career or situation right away. As long as you keep your mind, eyes, and ears open for opportunity you will find success. So your enemy is inaction.
4. Most people like to talk about themselves so do not be shy about asking people about their career or career trajectories. Most will be eager to talk about what they do or have done and also want to help you as a way of reinforcing their self image as a good person.
5. No knowledge is useless knowledge. So if you are on a white-collar track try to seek an opportunity to learn some hands-on skills like welding or mechanical repair. Or if you are on a blue-collar track, people and business management are very helpful things to know. Even the areas some may view as "soft" are important to train your mind to think and adapt quickly.
6. Take professional risks because the time to screw up is when you are young because you have more time to make up any set back, generally less money to lose, and more opportunity to earn that money back in the long run.

Best of luck to you.

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There's at least 55 schools that offer undergraduate degrees in Museum Studies/Related Fields.

The problem? It's a mile deep and an inch wide. Nobody should be betting their future on such a narrow field, especially one noted for its chronic impecuniousness. You can't have "better" information when the future is essentially opaque and human beings are still developing at the typical time of entry to college.

https://www.bachelorsportal.com/study-o ... tates.html

So, on the contrary, this thread is relevant because it examines the best way to pursue a career or should I say an occupation. I find the imputation of Maslovian self-actualization into employment to be a recipe for disappointment by people that can't figure out a job is a means to an end, not the end itself.

Assuming there's a career to be had-and based on the clamor for loan forgiveness-it's clear that colleges are selling degrees to students where the cost can't be justified. What's not clear to me is why the government should extinguish these loans, rather than the colleges that necessitated and directly benefitted from them.

Wow, you really don't know labor economics.

Internships are not social welfare; they are test drives and as such are often ruthlessly competitive. Common in accounting, they allow firms to ensure that potential hires show up, dress up, shut up and tick and tie a lot of workpapers. There's of course a lot of ass-kissing by interns attempting to ensure an offer of permanent employment. Misunderstanding my place in the KPMG food chain, one intern baked me a birthday cake.

Seventeen years ago, I was assigned to an engagement at PHEAA (Pennsylvania Higher Education Assistance Agency). I rapidly was astounded by the number of borrowers that had generalized (useless or worse, nonsense) degrees and six figure debt loads, one step ahead of default, and constantly seeking deferments and forbearances.

One of my young co-workers was paying $600/month; this on a salary of about $40,000. He was living a very spartan life. Now of course, if he made it to "Senior" there would have been a big bump in pay. Managers got an even bigger bump. A precious few become partners; most people tire of 80 hour weeks and leave after become manager or senior managers (managers are roughly analogous to Colonels in the military, partners generals and admirals).

And to some extent, this argument is already obsolete. "Big Ed" is running off the social inertia that says "go to college, any college, get a degree, any degree, you'll be fine". My first year at Penn State: $1400. Today, depending on location, program and year, 10-13 times that much. Salaries aren't 10-13 times what they were then.

I actually don't have a problem with "non-specific" degrees, if you understand that some jobs, accountant, actuary, chemist, engineer, physician have specific and legal requirements and that you might actually end up being a barista.

As for "narrow degrees", if you want to major in English Language and Literature, and double down with an MA, understand you might write annuity contracts for a living (former boss at Prudential).

Now as far as developing the "whole person", I had another boss at mother Pru who, before my arrival worked there with his wife. He proceeded to have an affair with his boss and get her pregnant. Years later, he relayed this story to me with the astonishment that "people were so interested in my personal life". I walked out of his office that day thinking he clearly had no idea how a public soap opera would play out, despite a degree from a prestigious Boston University. I still think of Hank as a colossal dumbass.

I'm simply not willing to diminish somebody because they lack some arbitrary credential or assume its presence is an indicator of anything other than a degree of subject matter competence.

The late Tim Samaras was an autodidact, no degree. Still, he was accomplished in radio and contributed mightily to our understanding of tornadoes, until his death in the El Reno monster in 2013.

Today, it is thought that a Harvard or Yale JD is required to be a Supreme Court Justice.

Associate Justice James F. Byrnes:

Didn't have a Harvard or Yale JD
Didn't have any JD, LLM, or LLB
Didn't have an undergraduate degree
Didn't have a high school diploma.

Somehow, despite the lack of a degree, I don't think he'd have failed to define woman with the caveat that he wasn't a biologist. Interesting that implicitly apparently doctors lack the ability to define the word. I would think an OB/GYN could define woman, hell I can and my sole training is having participated in MA maternity care audits and having women in my family.

And yet this IS going to change. The birthrate that began plummeting about 2005 or so is going to clobber Big Ed with its high fixed cost structure. As there's fewer students, smaller and less prestigious schools will close or consolidate. Despite the various subsidies that insulate colleges from market forces-disruptive innovation is at hand.

College chauvinism will increasingly draw cat calls of "OK, Millenial".

“Where is the "historic preservation" college track that contains a detailed discussion of the techniques needed to build, or repair, or manage teams?”

This may not be an exact answer, however College of Charleston has a major in Historic Preservation and Community Planing and their website mentions a student did an internship at the Nevada Northern.

https://cofc.edu/academics/majorsandmin ... vation.php

Preservation won't come with a college degree - it will come from craftsmen with calloused greasy hands and the desire to preserve the past.

With all due respect, I think preservation needs EVERYBODY. We need nerds with degrees, just as we need musclebound meatheads with mechanical inclinations. Putting all of these groups and subgroups together, we still are a minority of the earth's population. The majority of the world's people won't accept us if we can't even accept each other, nor can we expect to accomplish very much of value without working together...

Thanks, Sammy.

At the oddest prevous job I had in the industry:

"We really want you since you have built your business and know how to be entrepreneurial."

"OK, thanks, let's talk."

"We have to change the job title from Curator to Project Manager since you don't have a degree."

"Fine - what's the difference?"

"Oh, no difference - same job just different title."

I wish I had walked right then.