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 Post subject: Re: Canadian Pacific 2816
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2024 2:13 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 2363
Do people think the train is only within the gauge? It's almost as if psychologically and subconsciously the rails are the straight lines that we have all been taught to stay outside of (say, the painted lines on a station platform), and outside is safe....


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 Post subject: Re: Canadian Pacific 2816
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2024 7:43 am 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 4:02 pm
Posts: 1769
Location: Back in NE Ohio
I think a lot of us here have heard stories of "civilians" at Operation Lifesaver events who have asked the presenter why trains can't steer out of the way? Average people just don't have a clue sometimes.


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 Post subject: Re: Canadian Pacific 2816
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2024 9:10 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:06 pm
Posts: 138
I've seen several videos of 2816's journey into Mexico and this doesn't surprise me. People climbing on equipment (including 2816's tenders), climbing on infrastructure. Standing in the gauge until the last second, etc. There is clearly a cultural difference down there related to the dangers of railroading. There was a time in the U.S. where people took similar risks, but still seemed to have the basic common sense to not get too close.

I saw the video of this fatality and it really should not be compared to the UP 844 incident. The woman filming 844 lost situational awareness while focusing on her screen. With this casualty in Mexico, the individual made a conscious decision to kneel down for a selfie within about 6 inches from the rail head. A real tragedy, but bizarre behavior nonetheless.


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 Post subject: Re: Canadian Pacific 2816
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2024 9:40 am 

Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:36 pm
Posts: 243
I had also seen another video even before this one where another woman was trying to get a photo with it as it went by and, although she didn't get hit, she was close enough that the running board knocked her phone out of her hand. I've also seen photos of the 2816 with the headlight, marker lamps and numberboards all wrapped up win cloth and with pieces of plywood affixed in place because they were having people throw rocks at the engine as it went by.


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 Post subject: Re: Canadian Pacific 2816
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2024 9:52 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2004 9:48 am
Posts: 1611
Location: Byers, Colorado
It's true that in Mexico, people frequently climb over, under, around, and in between trains, much more than in the US. No doubt on track fatalities must be much more common there.

This is admittedly a different incident, but in the drone video I saw, the lady in Henderson, Colorado was standing on the ends of the ties for some time before the accident occurred, and the engineer was whistling like Hell in an attempt to warn her. 25 feet from the track is a very good idea.

And, to Mr Dixon's post, as long ago as the eighties, I was cautioned by trainmen to watch for rock throwers when taking pictures out the Dutch Doors in Mexico. I don't know about anybody else, but I always attempt to maintain "situational awareness" when photographing trains, ESPECIALLY STEAM EXCURSIONS.

Just a wild guess, but I suspect that all of the above is why CPKC management hasn't published a schedule for the Empress's journey south of the border. I bet she won't be going back anytime soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Canadian Pacific 2816
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2024 10:20 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 11601
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
PMC wrote:
Do people think the train is only within the gauge? It's almost as if psychologically and subconsciously the rails are the straight lines that we have all been taught to stay outside of (say, the painted lines on a station platform), and outside is safe....

Absolutely. Completely. Positively.

Just remember that we in this forum are the ones that have conscientiously, deliberately exposed ourselves to railroading environments routinely. As a young kid, I was allowed to go down and watch the local freight in my town switch sidings, etc. from close up, in a manner that would probably get parents arrested for "child endangerment" today. (Never mind the cab ride I got at age 5 or so.) In my teens, I could literally help the crew throw switches or flag a crossing. I spent my college years with a 50-mph freight line visible from my dorm window, and too many "studying sessions" trackside beside a 120-mph section of the Northeast Corridor. I learned how to hoop up orders to trains at one tower, and how to board and dismount from slowly-moving equipment (not that they even allow that today). My nearest "city" had a stretch of mainline that was one half-step away from street running (and still does), with only a sidewalk separating some storefronts from the track for two blocks.

Today I live 25 miles from the nearest active rail line, along with maybe 75,000 people in my metro area, and the nearest "big city" is by far the largest metropolitan area in North America without direct Amtrak service, itself effectively at the end of two "branch lines" from the two major transcon railroads. To the vast majority of people in this region, no matter how important the railroad was and is to the history and economy, the most exposure most people get to railroading is MAYBE getting blocked at a railroad crossing, unless they're in Flagstaff or Kingman where the gates go down every 20 minutes....... Further, today we consciously instill a sense of fear and danger in young children, which keeps them safer but deprive themselves of the opportunity to learn by doing, seeing, and experiencing.

As a result, YES, they are JUST THAT IGNORANT.


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 Post subject: Re: Canadian Pacific 2816
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2024 3:40 pm 

Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:51 pm
Posts: 210
Location: Massachusetts
Yes, it is true that many people today no longer know how to behave around trains. In many sections of the country, trains are not nearly as common as they once were. But what happened yesterday is just a symptom of a much larger problem. Today, virtually everybody is walking around with an electronic device, and while those devices were designed to make us more connected and more in-touch, sometimes, they do just the opposite. Not only is the personal interaction between humans suffering, but these eye-magnets are causing us to lose our situational awareness and really screwing with our priorities, sometimes at the cost of personal and public safety. A significant percentage of drivers on the road today cannot ignore a single text or Facebook post and are driving with one hand on the wheel and one on their phone. I don't have to tell you which one seems to be getting most of the brain power. It's the new drunk driving, apparently without the stigma.

In the case of the incident yesterday, this poor lady totally lost situational awareness (SA). Her total focus was on getting that exciting photo that would impress her friends and relatives, when common sense should have told her that the real priority should have been the 400-ton steam engine that was barreling down on her at 50 mph. Sadly, common sense is no longer common. Phones may be getting smarter, but people are getting dumber.

/Kevin Madore


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 Post subject: Re: Canadian Pacific 2816
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2024 10:24 am 

Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:36 pm
Posts: 243
QJdriver wrote:
And, to Mr Dixon's post, as long ago as the eighties, I was cautioned by trainmen to watch for rock throwers when taking pictures out the Dutch Doors in Mexico.


I'm also reminded of the folks that compete in the Baja 1000 talking about how at night, the locals dig pit traps and hang glass bottles on string across the race course at windshield height for amusement.


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 Post subject: Re: Canadian Pacific 2816
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2024 12:03 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:58 am
Posts: 276
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:

As a result, YES, they are JUST THAT IGNORANT.


Yes indeed.

In addition, should something bad happen, hoards of blood sucking, ambulance chasing, attractive nuisance "lawyers" will appear like a fleet of Borg Cubes demanding Ju$$$$tice for poor little Johnny. At a 30 or 40 % taking of the verdict.

Brian Helfrich


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 Post subject: Re: Canadian Pacific 2816
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2024 12:34 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 2:46 pm
Posts: 2668
Location: Pac NW, via North Florida
PMC wrote:
Do people think the train is only within the gauge?
Yes, some so. When I was still a brakeman, people would get right up to the rails for photos and would be upset when I told them the equipment will soon occupy the same space.

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 Post subject: Re: Canadian Pacific 2816
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2024 1:32 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2004 9:48 am
Posts: 1611
Location: Byers, Colorado
choodude wrote:
In addition, should something bad happen, hoards of blood sucking, ambulance chasing, attractive nuisance "lawyers" will appear like a fleet of Borg Cubes demanding Ju$$$$tice for poor little Johnny. At a 30 or 40 % taking of the verdict.Brian Helfrich


To try and get back on topic, it doesn't work that way in Mexico. Once you go south of the border, there is nobody to cry mama to in the event something bad should befall you in your travels...

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I am just an old man...
who wants to fix up an old locomotive.

Sammy King


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 Post subject: Re: Canadian Pacific 2816
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2024 8:14 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:58 am
Posts: 276
QJdriver wrote:
choodude wrote:
In addition, should something bad happen, hoards of blood sucking, ambulance chasing, attractive nuisance "lawyers" will appear like a fleet of Borg Cubes demanding Ju$$$$tice for poor little Johnny. At a 30 or 40 % taking of the verdict.Brian Helfrich


To try and get back on topic, it doesn't work that way in Mexico. Once you go south of the border, there is nobody to cry mama to in the event something bad should befall you in your travels...


Definitely sounds like something that should happen on the Northeast Corridor where I put in my 30 years of railroad service before retiring.

During the Stimulus days we had some money to spend on Right of Way property improvements. Some of that money went to installing highway guard rails in places that an automobile could get on the tracks. A year or two before this, such an event happened south of New Brunswick.

We got a call from our legal department wanting to know if the reason we were installing guard rail near Bristol PA was because of a lawsuit from a certain personal estate of a person who came out of a bar, crossed a busy four lane road, tried to cross four track high speed railroad and got to talk personally to St. Peter.

We'd never heard of this incident. But explain it to me like I'm five why this is a good thing.

Brian Helfrich


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 Post subject: Re: Canadian Pacific 2816
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2024 3:35 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 2334
Quote:
"We got a call from our legal department wanting to know if the reason we were installing guard rail near Bristol PA was because of a lawsuit from a certain personal estate of a person who came out of a bar, crossed a busy four lane road, tried to cross four track high speed railroad and got to talk personally to St. Peter.

We'd never heard of this incident. But explain it to me like I'm five why this is a good thing."

Probably because counsel for the dear departed might construe it as an admission of liability, or an attempt to retroactively reduce an understood negligence in safety assurance...

My cynical guess is that Armco barrier at typical traffic height, sufficient to deter a car, wouldn't be much of an obstacle for even a drunk person on foot. And that is what I'd tell legal. Preventing or precluding a vehicle collision, which at those speeds would carry significant risk of catastrophic derailment followed by involvement of cat posts, is far more important than 'trespasser' impact ,,, cold-blooded as that may sound.

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 Post subject: Re: Canadian Pacific 2816
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2024 7:49 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:58 am
Posts: 276
Like most of the places that we installed auto guard rails, they were topped by ~ 6 foot chain link fencing.

2209 US-13
https://maps.app.goo.gl/q4WrYE5Jsi3Kutwa9?g_st=ac

You can see how easy it would be for a car to get on the railroad tracks there. Close to 100 MPH track speed.

Of course most folks know how few minutes it takes before the fencing is cut open.

Brian Helfrich


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 Post subject: Re: Canadian Pacific 2816
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2024 8:13 am 

Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:56 pm
Posts: 437
Location: Ontario, Canada.
Friends sent me a clip the other night that they witnessed. A car in front of them was crossing the double-tracked CN Dundas Sub. mainline. The road crossing is across a super elevated track curve so is a slow, rough drive.
As the car got on the tracks, the bells, lights and gates engaged for a coming train. Rather than simply continue on, the car stopped and backed up. Meanwhile, the gate behind them had come down. They backed up to the gate with the front of their car still partly on the near track. Luckily, the train, a heavy eastbound freight running at 50 mph, was on the far track, running east on the westbound track under CTC! Equally luckily, there was no train coming on the near track -- that could have been a VIA Rail train at 80+ mph at that time of day.
Don't know the nature or age of the car driver. Evidently, all he/she knew was that bells and lights were happening and they had to stop. They obviously lost complete situational awareness. They could have been killed that evening. Even with the gate down on the far side, there would have been room to slip by.
The engine crew would have had quite a sight. There, obviously, was nothing they could do but blow the horn and pray.


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