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Superheater Element Material Specs
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Author:  Boilerbloke [ Wed Apr 17, 2024 3:39 am ]
Post subject:  Superheater Element Material Specs
Does anyone out there have a copy of the material spec for superheater elements that were being used at the time that these units were originally manufactured by the Superheater Co?

I'm looking for:
1. Spec number (ASTM, ASME, Shtr Co, etc)
2. Chemical composition
3. Mechanical properties
4. Steel manufacturing process used
5. Relevant documents, or weblinks, etc

I'm on the hunt for how the materials used in superheater elements have changed over the years (and why present day materials do not seem to last as long as the older materials).

I'm looking forward to what people may have out there to help me sort this conundrum, which I feel is related to the steel making process along with the chemical composition.

I'd like to keep this as a technical discussion (if this is possible) please.
Author:  CCDW [ Wed Apr 17, 2024 11:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Superheater Element Material Specs
Referring to my copy of ASME Rules of Construction of Boiler of Locomotives, 1946, Section III, paragraph L-111 “Superheater tubes complying with any of the specifications of Par. L-103 and not exceeding 2-1/2” in diameter,…” (the balance discusses welding and testing). So we now refer to paragraph L-103:
“Material. (a) The materials used in the fabrication of any fusion-welded boiler shell, dome, firebox, or other pressure part shall conform to Specifications SA-30, SA-70, SA-201, SA-203, SA-204 or SA-212 of Section II of the code." Important note: Not all specification numbers have specific correlation to the specification numbers used today. "Pipe or tubing shall conform to Specifications SA-53, SA-83, SA-106, SA-178, (a specification still in use today) SA-192, SA-210, SA-249, or SA-250, and steel flanges pipe flanges to Specification SA-105. The carbon content of all such material shall not exceed 0.35 per cent.”

As an example of a specification, we can look at Materials Specification, Section II, 1946, SA-178 because it is still a specification today, which starts off with “Identical with A.S.T.M. Specification A 178-44”. The specification lists four chemical requirements, Carbon, Manganese, Phosphorus, and Sulphur, for types of material, Type A, low-carbon steel, and Type B, open-hearth iron, and Type C, medium-carbon steel.

Attachment:
1946 ASME Rules of Boiler of Locomotives photo.docx [335.37 KiB]
Downloaded 88 times


My copy of the 1924 ASME construction code is about worthless in this discussion but to put something out there, the specification in 1924 for material for tubes is S-93, with carbon not over 0.03 per cent.
Author:  Boilerbloke [ Wed Apr 17, 2024 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Superheater Element Material Specs
Thanks CCDW for your reply.

This is just the sort of information I am seeking - the small print...

The tips you suggest for looking in the material specs is invaluable, and I suggest that you must have access to many of the old superseded codes (which is something that I do not).

I am suspicious that the actual steel making process, combined with chemical content of the various steels are going to be the culprits for the short life of modern-made steels compared to the past...

My search continues. Hopefully others on this list have further thoughts and insight...???

Thank you
Author:  CCDW [ Wed Apr 17, 2024 4:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Superheater Element Material Specs
While the content of the four elements is fairly exact other elements may be all over the place. The best you could do is find and old unused superheater and have it tested for content. I say unused because during heating in a products-of-combustion gas, elements can migrate into the base material. An example is Vanadium. Some heavier oils, bunker C for example, can have elevated levels of vanadium and unless you know how that element interacts with steel you can't say whether it was included from the steel mill or absorbed during its life in a boiler. Good luck with your endeavor.
Author:  Kelly Anderson [ Wed Apr 17, 2024 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Superheater Element Material Specs
Boilerbloke wrote:
I'm on the hunt for how the materials used in superheater elements have changed over the years (and why present day materials do not seem to last as long as the older materials).

I'm looking forward to what people may have out there to help me sort this conundrum, which I feel is related to the steel making process along with the chemical composition.
Please look at my post from June 10th, 2010 in this thread.
Author:  Boilerbloke [ Fri Apr 19, 2024 1:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Superheater Element Material Specs
Hi Kelly,

Many thanks for your reply and the lead to the much earlier discussions on this very aspect that I'm looking at right now.

Very much appreciated.
Author:  Boilerbloke [ Fri Apr 19, 2024 1:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Superheater Element Material Specs
Hi,

I was going to follow up with Wasatch railroad Contractors on the result of the survey of tube and plate material they were involved with in 2010 with the ESC and just noticed they are not around any more (I didn't catch onto that one until now).

Does anyone know the outcome of the investigation that went on at that time in 2010 that they could share here...?

Thank you
Author:  Paul Boschan [ Fri Apr 19, 2024 10:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Superheater Element Material Specs
The ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code, Section I "Rules for Construction of Power Boilers", 2023 Edition lists the following tube materials for Section I construction:

• SA-178, Electric resistance welded carbon steel and carbon-manganese steel boiler and superheater tubes.
• SA-192, Seamless carbon steel boiler tubes for high pressure service.
• SA-209, Seamless carbon-molybdenum alloy steel boiler and superheater tubes.
• SA-210, Seamless medium-carbon steel boiler and superheater tubes.
• SA-213, Seamless ferritic and austenitic alloy steel boiler, superheater, and heat exchanger tubes (ferritic only).

Of these materials, the ones most likely found in stock will be SA-178, SA-192, SA-210, and SA-213. The most common ferritic grades of SA-213 are T-11 (1-1/4% Chrome), T22 (2-1/4% Chrome), and T5 (5% Chrome).
Author:  Kelly Anderson [ Fri Apr 19, 2024 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Superheater Element Material Specs
Boilerbloke wrote:
I was going to follow up with Wasatch railroad Contractors on the result of the survey of tube and plate material they were involved with in 2010 with the ESC and just noticed they are not around any more
You might try getting in contact with G Mark Ray c/o tvrail.com. I don't have his direct contact info.
Author:  Boilerbloke [ Fri Apr 19, 2024 3:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Superheater Element Material Specs
Hi Paul,

Thanks. I am well aware of all of those standards. It's the history of the metal manufacturing and metallury of materials used in loco superheater elements (mainly the carbon steel stuff like A178, A192) that I'm looking for presently.

Hi Kelly,

Again, thanks for pointing me in a direction which I will investigate to see what I can find.

Hi anyone,

Apart from the normal carbon steel materials (A178, A192) is anyone aware of elements being made "in the day" from the chrome moly alloy materials...?
Author:  M Austin [ Sun Apr 21, 2024 11:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Superheater Element Material Specs
Life of superheaters have more to do with length of elements in the flue than metal chemistry.

Link to HI-Res copy.

Attachments:
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Author:  Boilerbloke [ Mon Apr 22, 2024 3:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Superheater Element Material Specs
Hi M Austin,

Thanks for the brief comment and the more interesting graphical representation of the superheater element steam profiles.

Can you possibly provide a more legible graphic for the "Inefficiencies of Traditional One Directional Flow Firetube Superheaters" so we can read the numbers that are on that graphic please?

I'd comment that the steam/metal temperatures are both interrelated which is why I asked the question of the group as to alloys that may have been used previsouly. I know, from experience, that power station superheater tubes are made from various grades of CrMo depending on temperature - just wondering if loco elements were similar along these lines...?
Author:  Pegasuspinto [ Mon Apr 22, 2024 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Superheater Element Material Specs
Perhaps the answer is more in the modern tubes. Where are people sourcing the tubes that don't last? If they come from China, the first step would be to precisely define the materials and process used to make the new tubes, and identify any deficiencies therein.

There is no way I would trust Chinese manufacture without verification.
Author:  Boilerbloke [ Mon Apr 22, 2024 3:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Superheater Element Material Specs
Hi Pegasuspinto,

I should note in this discussion that I am looking at materials that have been procured in the past, well before other markets opened to use. The materials I am looking at came from either the UK, USA or Australia.
Author:  Lincoln Penn [ Tue Apr 30, 2024 2:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Superheater Element Material Specs
You might want to give some consideration to what happened "back in the day" to those who tried out nickle steel alloys for boiler shell material.
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