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 Post subject: New steam insanity - again
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2024 8:07 am 

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:34 pm
Posts: 2779
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
It's amazing what people can get funded - and here I am struggling to get funding for my research

https://www.globalrailwayreview.com/news/174246/steamology-zero-emission-steam/

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 Post subject: Re: New steam insanity - again
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2024 9:49 am 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 2335
What's supposed to be wrong with this?

While it does remain to be seen if the implementation is practical, there is nothing weird about either the steam generation or consumption...

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 Post subject: Re: New steam insanity - again
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2024 10:00 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:35 pm
Posts: 410
Location: NJ
It would be very ironic if, in the search for zero emissions locomotives, we went back to steam.

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 Post subject: Re: New steam insanity - again
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2024 2:40 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 11602
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
The issue with this idea is how the hydrogen fuel is obtained. The only "zero emissions" methodology I know of to extract hydrogen is to power electrolysis with nuclear energy or hydro/wind power. Otherwise, once again, this becomes a case of simply moving the emissions smokestack from the vehicle to a production plant. In the same way, rail electrification only becomes "zero emissions" if powered by nuclear or hydroelectric power (see the PRR's power dam across the Susquehanna, the Milwaukee Road's hydro power plants, etc.).


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 Post subject: Re: New steam insanity - again
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2024 5:46 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 2335
In my opinion, the 'hydrogen' part of it isn't going to be workable long-term; the majority of the issue with hydrogen carrier has been with the supply infrastructure and long-term price assurance -- and there was a far better case for that with the Coradia iLINT battery trains and their ilk than there ever would be for something burning hydrogen in a steam generator (rather than in, say, ceramic turbines for GTCC with steam bottoming).

I've said it before; I'll say it again: the only long-term source of hydrogen carrier that makes any sense whatsoever is blue hydrogen with sequestration. Yes, it's like the first law of consulting.

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 Post subject: Re: New steam insanity - again
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2024 11:08 am 

Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:29 pm
Posts: 27
Location: Near Boston
Hydrogen, the gleam in the eye of well meaning, motivated and clueless people who do not know basic fundamental engineering facts. Hydrogen, poor energy density, explosive, likes to leak, study hydrogen embrittlement of steel. Why look for trouble, here it is.


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 Post subject: Re: New steam insanity - again
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2024 11:41 am 

Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2022 8:56 am
Posts: 74
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
In the same way, rail electrification only becomes "zero emissions" if powered by nuclear or hydroelectric power (see the PRR's power dam across the Susquehanna, the Milwaukee Road's hydro power plants, etc.).


An acquaintance and former minor Milwaukee Road official was wont to praise the electrification, considering it to have been a step in the right direction that had the misfortune to be shackled to the rest of the railroad.

As an aside, he once made the observation that the only truly clean building he ever walked into on the property was a generating station.


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 Post subject: Re: New steam insanity - again
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2024 11:16 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
Posts: 1434
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Safe Harbor dam, on the Susquehanna between Harrisburg and Columbia, still has two turbines generating 25 Hz power for Amtrak.

P


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 Post subject: Re: New steam insanity - again
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2024 11:33 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:29 pm
Posts: 27
Location: Near Boston
Where is 25 cycle power still being used?
Is it converted to 60 cycle power somewhere, or are there GG1's operating in hyperspace?


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 Post subject: Re: New steam insanity - again
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2024 12:04 am 

Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:37 pm
Posts: 5
With due respect another "really clean" power source is geothermal. There are some new technologies becoming available to deep drill laterally (developed in the fracking industry) which have the (imho REAL) potential for geothermal to become very efficient. Again with apologies to further drift this subject, If there is still enough western land grant lands on the UP and NP routes this could become a cheap source of electricity to electrify both the BNSF and UP mains.


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 Post subject: Re: New steam insanity - again
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2024 7:51 am 

Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:58 am
Posts: 276
Rollerman wrote:
Where is 25 cycle power still being used?
Is it converted to 60 cycle power somewhere, or are there GG1's operating in hyperspace?


I'm away from my timetable, but IIRC the cutover is somewhere on the Hellgate Line.

Everything south and west on the ex-PRR is still 25 cycle.

Corrections welcome.

Brian Helfrich


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 Post subject: Re: New steam insanity - again
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2024 11:24 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
Posts: 1434
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Pretty much Amtrak's entire ex-PRR electrification is 25 Hz. The phase break is near "GATE" on the Penn Station end of the Hell Gate Line. SEPTA's ex-PRR lines use this power also.

SEPTA's ex-Reading lines also use 25 Hz power but supplied by PECO at 60 Hz to a frequency changer at Wayne Junction. The phase break is at Spring Garden St. where the Center City Tunnel joins the ex-RDG trunk.

NJT's ex-DL&W Morris and Essex lines were re-electrified at 60 Hz. On their way to Hoboken they cross above Amtrak's ex-PRR "High Line" at "SWIFT" where there are ramps and connections with phase breaks. Not all equipment is compatible with both frequencies and NJT has to be careful what they send where.

At NJT's Secaucus Jct. there is no track connection and NJT's ex-Erie track is not electrified.

Phil Mulligan


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 Post subject: Re: New steam insanity - again
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2024 5:53 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:52 pm
Posts: 193
Location: Pittsburgh
Quote:
With due respect another "really clean" power source is geothermal.

Somebody needs to figure out how to harness the energy in those volcanos up in Iceland.

/s/ Larry
Lawrence G. Lovejoy, P.E.


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 Post subject: Re: New steam insanity - again
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2024 7:12 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:58 am
Posts: 276
EJ Berry wrote:
NJT's ex-DL&W Morris and Essex lines were re-electrified at 60 Hz. On their way to Hoboken they cross above Amtrak's ex-PRR "High Line" at "SWIFT" where there are ramps and connections with phase breaks. Not all equipment is compatible with both frequencies and NJT has to be careful what they send where.

Phil Mulligan


Minor correction. The Ex DL&W tracks go under the Ex PRR track's and the ramp tracks go up to the High Line at Swift.

You may have heard of plans to replace the "Sawtooth Bridge."
That's the bridge structures over the Ex DL&W tracks.

Brian Helfrich


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 Post subject: Re: New steam insanity - again
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2024 11:01 am 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 2335
For reference, their steam generators (of which there are 20 in the test mule) use green hydrogen and "02" as "fuel". They raise steam in "<10 sec" which indicates they are using a flash arrangement -- perhaps not the best if there is long-term embrittlement or corrosion. It would be interesting to see if modern fabrication techniques have reduced the cost of a tapered monotube in alloys that will support their claimed 46bar pressure.

They indicate that a module can produce "up to 600kg/hr." but don't specify the pressure or any degree of practical superheat in delivered steam at that mass flow. More significantly, perhaps, with hydrogen storage of only 140kg, I wonder what the effective range of the locomotive at its peak 2MW output would be.

One notes, in the 'collateral', a claim that this approach (e.g. 20 generator modules feeding four turboalternators) represents a higher energy density, more cost-effective operation and lower overall cost over the locomotive's lifecycle, compared to 'batter' or 'fuel-cell' alternatives (presumably of equal power, flexibility, and availability). The whole approach will 'sink or swim' on a practical generation and distribution architecture for carrier hydrogen, which of course would be necessary for fuel-cell or battery-recharge 'solutions' too, and this has apparently not gone as well as promoted for the Coradia iLINT and other battery-train schemes in Europe. Much of the anticipated use of 'green hydrogen' in Britain is at comparatively low pressure (as for town gas) and this would require electric compression, perhaps to 3000psi or higher, and perhaps liquification, to be used for 'transport' applications.

Contact information, for those interested in better details:

Steamology
The Boiler House, unit 19,
Dean Hill Park,
West Dean,
Nr Salisbury,
SP5 1EZ

+44 (0) 1794 463 366
+44 (0) 1794 463 367



info@steamology.co

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