Back on 12/15 Dave had a posting in these Interchange pages in which he stated, "how about running a national tour of reasonably authentic smaller older trains with ten wheelers, light pacifics, a mike or consolidation pulling WWI era cars?" and on 12/16 John Craft followed up with "I like Dave's idea - a ten wheeler on a four-car train (with two of those being an RPO and baggage) is a far better educational tool than an N&W J pulling 30 cars in Missouri." Well I've waited for other comments to appear but since none have, let me stick my 2 cents in.<p>First of all, I applaud the idea because it makes sense. But I DO think John is wrong about the train consist. Todays BNSF's and CSX's and NS's, etc. don't directly handle passengers anymore, they handle freight. A ten-wheeler or consolidation should be pulling a 1930's to 1950's era FREIGHT train. The consist behind the steamer should be two box cars, a 50-ton coal hopper, a 40' flatcar, a riveted steel tankcar, an ice bunker refrigerator car and, of course, a caboose. This exhibition train would visit fairs, festivals, on line customer plants, etc. Why should the current class 1 railroads even agree to host such a train? Because it would be good business!! At each display of the train would be a corresponding "modern" piece of the lines equipment. A fancy new diesel, a covered hopper to show the difference in todays grain loading vs. loading grain in boxcars, a unit train coal hopper, a refrigerated trailer on a piggyback flat vs. the old "ice" reefer, a large "modern" flatcar load vs. an "old" load (perhaps farm tractors), a large tank car and of course, the EOT device showing why the caboose has disappeared. The second boxcar would be an exhibit car for Operation Lifesaver with examples (pictures and actual autos and trucks) that lost vs. a train.<p>Does this train make sense to todays railroads? Of course it does! Will they spend the money to sponsor it? Sadly, probably not. But others might, including railfans and more importantly, builders of railroad equipment. Then the problem is only to get the rails to agree to run the train.<p>The benefit to railfans is obvious. A steam train running all over the country; photo opportunities galore! And for those railfans helping to sponsor the train for a certain amount; a caboose ride when the train moves from one destination to another. And perhaps even a cab ride for a higher amount.<p>Where would the equipment come from? From museums (or private owners) with no more than one piece of equipment from one source so that this doesn't become an "ABC Museum" show but instead a good source of publicity for museums countrywide (I believe our museum would make an equipment donation but I think a volunteer group interested in rail preservation should oversee such an undertaking and decide where the equipment should come from.) I would suggest that Dave and John Craft would make a good start to such a group.<p>Any comments out there?<br> <br>



midlandblb@cs.com

The idea of using frieght would AT LEAST reduce the liability by not having passengers around, the public would all be trackside and at the designated stops.<br>



wowak@hotmail.com

Considering the age of the historic freight equipment, and the antiquated appliances they have, such as AB brakes and plain bearings (both not very well received by Class One roads), how about putting on a display of modern equipment at a local or regional rail museum, which would already have the vintage freight equipment on site.<p>Anyone who has tried to move freight cars built before 1955-60, or any cars on plain bearings, on a Class One railroad, will agree that the railroads do not want this stuff on their lines, period. Most older freight cars moving to museums these days go via highway.<br>

<br>Okay, just for the sake of argument, how difficult and/or expensive would it be to remount the freight cars on roller bearing trucks (or whatever the railroads like these days) and redo the braking? I wouldn't think that doing so would drastically alter the appearance of the car, especially when the public is concerned.<br>



Charlesebrown@webtv.net

Yes, this concept may draw support from equipment manufacturers, railfan organizations even the railroads themselves. However, what is John Q Public's interest in a stationary viewing of roving historic freight railroad equipment? For the most part, Mr. Public's contact with freight trains may negatively involve prolonged waits at grade-crossings. It may be interesting to the few pre-electronic techno-freaks; but how is such a train going to draw the fascination of a twenty-something couple and their pokemon kids?<p>To be successful, the train should be tied to a larger recognizable event. I.e. the American Freedom Train during our Nation's Bicentennial. This would assist in attracting a larger audience AND the sponsorship to pull it off. Someone previously mentioned a train commemorating WWII military personal in the form of a historic troop train. The post Baby Boomer couple may have a relative that retold war stories. Obviously, a 21st Century Limited would have been or could be a drawing card, but how do we tie this freight/mixed train concept? <p>My suggestionÂ… fill railroad cars with 21st century electronic gadgets and have Strasburg's Thomas the Tank available at every stop. Any takers for Edward or Gordon replicas?<br>Ken<br><br>

And more discussion....great!<p>The static train is not the event - the tour itself is. I would expect the train would not stop for long in any given station apart from an overnight stay or fuel and water, running repairs. <p>The public may well be interested in watching the steam train come down the tracks into town, watching it get oiled and watered, taking a short tour, and watching it leave again, all within an hour and a half. No pokemon necessary - and any parent who allows their children to obcess over marketing schemes deserves what they get in return. <p>This could well pull the generations together.<p>Steamtown might make a great organizer, and they certainly have the talent available to keep the equipment up and running. Dealing with the railroads is easy when the railroads want to be dealt with - it is almost impossible for anyone to deal with them otherwise. Until we replace the MBAs with Claytors, that won't change. <p>The veterans train I have always thought is a fine idea, and has a built in constituency. Is there an anniversary relating to WWII coming up? I picture 1361 with a string of GI Pullmans and hospital cars.<p>Dave<br>



lathro19@idt.net

Dave,<br>Two years ago, in light of California's Sesquicentennial and the arrival of the new millineum, I assisted in creating a local proposal entitled the "High Tech Express." The concept was to celebrate our local area's history and future via a four car walk-through train: passenger car 1-Santa Clara County history, passenger car 2-high tech gadgets, caboose 1 Operation Lifesaver, caboose 2 local railroad history. Heading the consist would be Southern Pacific steam locomotive 2479 which remains owned by our county's government. Several display sites, predominately Caltrain stations, have been identified within the region and could be utilized during the assorted annual community festivals. In turn, we would share the media/publicity requirements with the organizers of these local events <p>Clearly, our railfan objective is to operate the steam locomotive. However, our proposal was written seeking broad community support from our local cities, historical organizations, businesses, Caltrain, etc. Although we received preliminary interest from our community, we literally ran out of time to timely complete the locomotive's restoration while our board was heavily involved in the development of our railroad museum at the county fairgrounds. Availability and allocation of resources is always an issue. Yet, we may dust off and revisit our proposal at some time in the future. <p>Regrettably, unless someone's rich uncle will financially support these railfan dreams, a valid proposal requires broad sponsorship and support to become reality. Unfortunately, there is little interest, outside railgeeks, in watching a freight train pass through a community. As a result, the contents of a static train display would have to be the major attraction and the requirement for a steam powered locomotive would have to be creatively linked to the overall proposal theme. For us, a steam locomotive represents a link our valley's agricultural history prior to the arrival of sand, a.k.a. Silicon!<p>Ken Middlebrook<br>California Trolley and Railroad Corporation<br><br>

If 844 is going to return to service, it would be a good locomotive to pull a troop train (and no, not those damn yellow cars) consisting of borrowed harriman cars. Or have good old Doyle McCormick take the streamlining off his beloved locomotive, paint it black...BINGO a "War Baby" ready to pull a troop train!<p>Of course any way you look at this (troop train, frieght train or mixed train) you all must remember to get Bill Gates to foot the expense of running the train.<p>And the Thomas idea Sucks!!<p>Just a thought,<br>Johnathon Kruger<br>Steam Dept.<br>Niles Canyon Railway<br>



jkruger504@aol.com

Folks, I've spent the last few years as a volunteer at Steamtown, where our unique circumstances does allow us to use moving freight equipment as an interpretive tool, albeit only in yard service. I think we may have the best laboratory for this type of thing with the caveat that park visitors probably have more heightened interest that the general public. I offer the following thoughts.<p>We have to remember that the public at large won't be interested in the same things that the rail enthusiast or railfan community will be interested in. For example, a big source of interest is our core complex turntable. Move that one stall, people flock around, even when we have no equipment on it. I'd hazzard to guess visitors of RYPN would generally be most interested only when a locomotive is on the table.<p>My own observations lead me to believe that an interpretive display or recreation must have certain elements. It must be participative, dynamic, of relatively short duration (damn TV remotes!), and part of something bigger or something else.<p>Assuming somehow you can address all the well placed concerns raised in this thread about brakes and bearings and of course convincing a Class 1 that this somehow is part of their mission statement, (not real easy now-regionals might be difficult to convince instead of outright predisposed to be hostile) <p>I just can't see how such a thing could be made engaging enough to cause people to visit the thing on its own. We have had switching demonstrations in the past where it was difficult to hold people's attention for more than 15 or 20 minutes. A train with a legacy consist would lack the personalization, the dynamism that generally is an attribute of a successful interpretive event. <p>Now, if this was part of some town's centennial it might be a part of a successful event, but that's all. Assuming of course, the event sponsors this thing and the railroad's lawyers are at a convention in a sunny warm climate. <p><p> <p><br>



cndrblw26@hotmail.com

Boys !!!!<br>What year is it ? 2000....correct ?<p>The steam locomotive no longer has any relevance to the class one outfits. That was over 50 years<br>ago !!! <p>The infrastructure, the labor force to support this stuff-all gone !!! As such, steam is completely out of context...in todays world<p>Like any well-run business, the railroad trade has three groups of people to look out for: customers,<br>employees and the shareholder. The steam locomotive,part of the PAST, has no relevance to<br>any of these groups.<p>I have always felt that the reason railroad preservation has done so poorly in this country<br>is that "fans" never forgave the railroads for<br>"killing" their beloved steam locos. <p>How childish...move on....<p><br>



74471.3045@compuserve.com