Not related specifically to the Reading loco discussion, but an interesting aside:

An article by Ryan C. Kunkle in the June 2005 Friends of the RR Museum of Pa. Milepost on the Amtrak E60CP/E60CH fleet indicates that after a Feb. 1975 derailment of an E60CP during a speed test, the entire fleet was stored as they were delivered on a siding at Wilmington. Del. pending investigation and formal acceptance. During the course of that storage, every single builder's plate was removed/stolen by "collectors" before any entered service.

I'm beginning to understand why GE has gone to adhesive stickers..........

I remember seeing a two-week-old builder's plate from a Conrail SD something at the Gaithersburg train show about 20 years ago. You know, most of the steam stuff that still exists is preserved because some of today's old-timer fans and preservationists hopped a fence at a scrap yard or dead line with a hammer and chisel and "saved" them. Some of those who exercised this type of preservation are very well-known to (and respected by) this community - wink, wink.

You mean "some who stole in this manner are well known to the community, and don't mention their thievery for fear it'll impact the future price of their loot."

When you "hop the fence" at a scrap yard, you're still technically stealing. It's a different matter if you go to the foreman, yardmaster, or the torch holder and offer them cash, or (the "standard" pay in the 1940s and 1950s) a bottle of spirits or a box of cigars, and say "I want that plate/whistle." I acknowledge that this happened many, many times and that there's even a chance that whoever has the plate off of 614 may have used this technique. Some of the railroads even sold the stuff to railfans who asked.

I perfectly well acknowledge that when the engine or car gets scrapped, then it's effectively a dumpster-diving operation. No one wants to see a scrapping claw bite into a perfectly good Mars light, air horn, cast plate, or FRA-approved windshield. And Lord know, I myself have done a few literally last-night-before-the-demolition/scrapping raids. But all my "rescues" eventually were donated back to historical organizations for restoration reuse, not hoarded until my death and/or sold for hundreds or thousands (save two odd bits that are unusable on other projects--I never got a builder's plate).

In the case of the 614 plate's "owner," he (and/or his predecessor possessors) apparently cared enough about the engine and/or plate to either steal it, get it from someone who did, or (a long shot) buy it from the C&O. The engine (and a couple others) was on a scrap line in Russell, Kentucky for years before transfer to Baltimore, so certainly at THAT time you could have said "the engine is doomed" and act accordingly. ONCE THE ENGINE IS PRESERVED, however, that excuse/rationale doesn't wash. The "owner" obviously either despises Rowland for whatever reason, or cares much more about having the "trophy" than being any kind of preservationist or historian. With that argument, I might as well just go to the B&O Museum and start taking plates and other hardware with the rationale that "if I don't take it, someone else will, so better me than some cretin that doesn't care".

I have personal knowledge of another situation where a steam locomotive was restored, ready to steam, and then they found that the whistle was totally unworkable due to some damage over the years (a freeze-cracked bowl, as I recall). A collector of my acquaintance, whose primary collection was from buying estates of the guys who went to the scrappers with the bourbon and cigars, came through out of his "vault" with the right whistle, fully functional and ready to go, and lent it to the group for the steam-up and premiere. They asked when he wanted it back, and his answer was "just..........just.... just take it, OK? You need it more than I do." The informal handshake deal was that he got the damaged whistle in trade, and when the loco was permanently retired they could swap back if he were still alive.

Now THAT guy was a restorationist, not just a collector.

Nobody goes to Strasburg to ride a builders plate. While it would be nice to have every little bit of an engine, especially the jewlery that always seems to go missing, the truly important component is the loco itself. If it were up to the parent company, every single bit of scrap would have been salvaged for cash value and we wouldn't have any equipment on display. How many engines that are preserved were actually donated by a parent railroad?

Plates can be replicated, and the average steam fan knows very little as to what bell, number board, or whistle belongs on what locomotive. If a part comes up for an engine that is currently owned by a preservation society, ask the seller to consider donating the piece, which would give them the opportunity to use it as a tax deduction. Otherwise pay the price, have a fundraiser, or let it go.

How many museums are out there, filled with artifacts that came from grave sites? From bones, to jewelry, to caskets, etc. I suppose they were all purchased from the families of the deceased.

I think if an arrangment can be made to get the plates back with the person that currently has them that is great. But to go as far as to take legal action to obtain them is bordering on absurd. Do not take me the wrong way, the theft of artifacts is a real problem, and I certainly support the catching of thieves and recovery of artifacts. But in this case it does not sound like they have any true proof of theft, and it was decades ago, and several owners ago. The lawyers will very quickly cost more then the cost of having repro plates made, and as nice as it is to have originals, in the long run it makes very little difference to the locomotives themselves, especially if your organization has never even had the originals! If it were the leadership of my organization spending money on lawyers for what in reality does little or nothing to further the long term preservation of the locomotives, I would be be looking for new leadership.

Bringing a LONG-dead topic back to life for good reason:

https://auctions.railroadmemories.com/110/

Lot 104:

I went back to the beginning of the thread for a history of this item but it references a different thread. Presumably it was stolen, did it come off a unit that still exists?

I have notified Phila Chapter NHRS, owner of 903. If it was stolen while they owned the unit, they may be able to recover it.

Phil Mulligan

The C&O RR as well as many other steam RR's did in fact sell locomotive builder's plates and number plates to collectors. Therefore it can be said that many of them were acquired through proper means. The PRR, NP and others actively sold them to interested fans.
These plates that once cost $5.00 or $25.00 in 1950's money can now sell for hundreds even thousands of dollars so it's pretty difficult to ask someone to just give it back !
Just saying.

Kevin K

A caution that several other lots in this auction have been voluntarily withdrawn or had the reserves removed due to questions of authenticity--numerous "police" badges and one Santa Fe clock, among others.

It would not surprise me in the least that, after all this time, five plates turn up for Reading 903.

I'm reminded of the caution of the late Ed Fagen, steam whistle collector/author: "Of the 25 long-bell MM&M steam whistles that were on UP Big Boys, about 250 are alleged to be in collectors' hands, and of 278 Leslie A200-156 air horns that were on PRR GG1s, about 700 are in collectors' hands..............."

Original thread from 2003!:

www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5665

Philadelphia Chapter NRHS owns Reading 903; the unit is coupled to RCT&HS-owned 902 at Steamtown, currently next to RDG 2124.

If 903 had the builders plate when PHL NHRS acquired it, then it was stolen from them. If they have the proper documentation, they can recover it.

I believe 902 and 903 have reproduction plates in place of the originals.

Phil Mulligan

They each currently have decal replacements of their respective builder's plates.

A great deal of analysis went into the specifics:

The builders plates and other items like the front number plates, by photographic evidence, were believed to have been stolen from all three "survivor" Reading FP7 locos in literally the final days/hours of the Reading's existence in March 1976, most likely by a specific employee whom circumstantial evidence and word-of-mouth suggested made off with a LOT of Reading Company property in those final hours, through official channels or no.

The three FP7s were sold by later owner/operator SEPTA to the historical groups without plates as a result.

Extensive debate can then ensue whether the groups have any legal or moral standing to demand the plates in question, as they acquired the locos sans plates.

Here we go again! It looks like the "owner" felt that the heat was off after all these years, and decided to raise a few bucks for himself. It's a shame that this character won't donate the plates to the current owners of these preserved locomotives as a magnanimous gesture, which could atone for the "sins" of the original "collector". Sadly, I suspect that the owner considers $$$MONEY$$$ in his pocket is more important than historical preservation.