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 Post subject: Re: How long should a steam restoration take?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2003 5:34 pm 

> OTOH, we now have standards and practices
> which are more real-world based than those
> of 3 years ago.

> Sources do exist for the most commonly
> replaced components, albiet far fewer than
> in previous eons.

> So, taking a practical look at the potential
> for SCRM 44:

I wasn't specifically thinking about the 44, although both she and the 712 were in the back of my mind. The main reason I asked was a comment in another thread about Steamtown having some full-time workers, and the many comments about Strasburg's contract work.

The more I think about the 44, the more I'm beginning to think about going after something else to be our steam "runner." There's a reason the R&R liked stuff with both leading and trailing trucks. I'd still very much like to get the 44 running again, but I'm thinking finding a smallish Prarie or Mike to buy might be a better short-term solution.

The South Carolina Railroad Museum
mconrad@msmgmt.com


  
 
 Post subject: Re: How long should a steam restoration take?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2003 6:21 pm 

Matt,

I know what you're saying, but there are plenty of steam engines without trailing trucks which were/are regularly operated in both directions. No. 90 (a 2-10-0) comes to mind at Strasburg, and the R&R operated No. 712 and No. 203. For that matter, did the Hampton & Branchville have turning facilities?

Of course, maybe y'all can shake the 19 loose from Greenwood one of these days and return her to her old stompin' ground.

Good Steaming,
Hugh
> I wasn't specifically thinking about the 44,
> although both she and the 712 were in the
> back of my mind. The main reason I asked was
> a comment in another thread about Steamtown
> having some full-time workers, and the many
> comments about Strasburg's contract work.

> The more I think about the 44, the more I'm
> beginning to think about going after
> something else to be our steam
> "runner." There's a reason the
> R&R liked stuff with both leading and
> trailing trucks. I'd still very much like to
> get the 44 running again, but I'm thinking
> finding a smallish Prarie or Mike to buy
> might be a better short-term solution.


The Ultimate Steam Page
whodom2001@yahoo.com


  
 
 Post subject: Re: How long should a steam restoration take?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 7:04 am 

44 is a reasonable sized project, and relatively complete. 712 is a Very Large Project with a lot of missing stuff. Any chance of repatriating the 0-4-0? Its size makes it manageable and your trains are small.

There may be some Army 0-6-0's available from China or Eastern Europe.

SLM / Sulzer can build you a new modern steam locomotive with very high efficiency that pollutes less than a diesel and looks properly old for 3.3 million.

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net


  
 
 Post subject: Re: How long should a steam restoration take? *PIC*
PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:31 am 

> Matt,

> I know what you're saying, but there are
> plenty of steam engines without trailing
> trucks which were/are regularly operated in
> both directions. No. 90 (a 2-10-0) comes to
> mind at Strasburg, and the R&R operated
> No. 712 and No. 203. For that matter, did
> the Hampton & Branchville have turning
> facilities?

Yes, but the SRR has gentle hills and only one real curve. Hampton County SC is flat as a pancake. There's really no comparison to the R&R, which is essentially a mountain railroad that's not in the mountains. The hill coming east out of Rion averages 1.6%, with a short stretch of 2.3% right by the old water tank (why they'd put a tank on such a steep hill is beyond me). And the railroad has some pretty nasty curves, especially west of Rion. Heck, the S-curve at the est end of the Rion Yard is going to be problematic, for that matter. The Relocation around the ex-Mack Trucks plant didn't improve things any.

The R&R used the 203 as a switcher at Anderson Quarry before they put her up. She may have run on the main but if she did I'm not familiar with it. The 712 was always the "backup" engine, even when they first got her. Her drivers are huge for a shortline and her rigid wheelbase was much longer than the Mikes. The crews hated her -- she was hard on the track, rode hard, and slipped if you looked at her crosseyed.

There's a reason the railroad bought another Mike in 1963. On that railroad, trailing trucks would be a definite advantage. This is part of why I'm itching to get some sort of steam at our operation -- it'll put on a great show simply because of the demands of the railroad. If I could scare up the $$$ I'd invite Jim Wrinn et. al. down with the 1925 for a week or two. Wouldn't be much slower than we run now and would really give the old girl a workout.

The history of the R&R
Image
mconrad@msmgmt.com


  
 
 Post subject: Re: How long should a steam restoration take?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:47 am 

Never heard of a steam locomotive overhaul taking place over a days time !!!! That is not the way railroad shops worked. I would say that at least a month is a more reasonable estimate. In the 40's ?, there was an article in LIFE magazine showing the progress of ? through overhaul at the NYCS West Albany Shop. As I recollect, it took at least a month. Of course, the guys on the erecting floor were fully supported by satellite shops such as machine, boiler, sheet metal, etc.

> Back in the day, a locomotive could be torn
> down and rebuilt in a day in some big shops.
> These days, restoration efforts are often
> measured in years. Is this just because such
> efforts are "spare time" work done
> by fewer workers? Or are we doing things
> differently today?

> Assuming you have a full-time staff of 4 who
> are working on one locomotive for 40 hours a
> week, how long should it take to do a
> rebuild? Let's say the rebuild includes new
> bearings all around, new tubes, new tires,
> and re-timing and that the engine is a small
> to medium-sized loco with no trailing truck,
> say a ten-wheeler or consol.


locoeng@verizon.net


  
 
 Post subject: Darn, we just released the flatcar from GSMR!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 12:59 pm 

If I could scare up the $$$
> I'd invite Jim Wrinn et. al. down with the
> 1925 for a week or two. Wouldn't be much
> slower than we run now and would really give
> the old girl a workout.

Gee, Matt, you should have said something earlier and we would have moved on down to Winnsboro after Dillsboro!

Seriously, holler if you'd like to try and work up some figures sometime.

My thinking for a permanent steam program at SCRM: Get a Heisler! They move, are nimble, and have good pulling power for your hills. See if SERM would lease the Campbell Limestone engine... it's got good SC roots!

http://nctans.org
Wrinnbo@aol.com


  
 
 Post subject: Re: Darn, we just released the flatcar from GSMR!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:17 pm 

> My thinking for a permanent steam program at
> SCRM: Get a Heisler! They move, are nimble,
> and have good pulling power for your hills.

And every time some little thing in the drive train needs adjusting, you have to remove the affected truck and drop the gear case. There is a reason Shays were most popular!

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net


  
 
 Post subject: Re: How long should a steam restoration take?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 3:00 pm 

I don't mean to be funny, but some restorations never seem to come to a conclusion. Are Long I sland 35 and 39 any closer to operation than they were 5 years ago? (I seem to recall these engines being in locomotive and railway preservation) How long has 1361 been undergoing restoration or Boston and Maine 3713 for that matter(before my daughter was born, and she's in Kindergarten). Some restorations seem quick by comparison CP 2816 comes to mind. So, just goes to show there is no timeline, and facilities do not guarantee quick results, although they do help. I don't think 765 had any type of facilities when she was restored, yet she now has a nice home.


  
 
 Post subject: Re: How long should a steam restoration take?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2003 7:35 am 

Sorry IÂ’m late, been out of the office. From our records, I can give the following numbers of man-hours on the restoration of #475, and in service rebuilds of #89, and #90.

#475 restored from being mechanically worn out by the N&W, as well as being stored outside for 34 years: Rebuild. 3 new axles, 1 new wheel, equalizing rebuilt, boxes rebuilt using old brasses, new shoes & wedges, lead truck rebuilt, lead wheels turned, cracks in frame welded, pedistals faced, binders rebuilt (2 new made). Welded side rods, new smoke box, new front firebox waist sheet, 6 firebox patches, new flexi's & sleeves, washout holes tapped & new plugs made, 2 new boiler braces, new form 4, new jacket, new piping, new main reservoirs, new injectors, new water glasses. Rebuild valve gear, rebuild power reverse, air pump rods turned, bore valve bushings, new piston valves, new pistons, new electrical, new speedometer, new markers. Tender repair; 1/4 new bottom, misc. plate repair, truck rebuild, new wheel sets, ext. cabinet, locker work. Total time 16,885 man hours.

#89 boiler repairs to replace wasted wrapper sheet, and crown sheet: Replace roof, crown, top of door sheet, top of rear flue sheet. New backhead & front flue sheet braces, 2 additional front flue sheet braces, new dry pipe. Total time 7,720 man hours.

#90 complete bottom end rebuild including; new tires, 1 new axle, 2 new main rod crankpins, all new bearings in rods, new shoes & wedges, new lead truck wheel set. New flues & tubes, reriveted left check pad, new jacket frame. Standard annual work. Repaired & sandblasted tender. Total time 6,900 man hours.

I wouldnÂ’t be avoid an engine without a trailing truck just because of needing to backup. The Heber Valley has been backing their 2-8-0 #618 down a sharply curved line since 1970.

Strasburg Rail Road
kelly@strasburgrailroad.com


  
 
 Post subject: Re: Darn, we just released the flatcar from GSMR!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2003 8:29 am 

> Gee, Matt, you should have said something
> earlier and we would have moved on down to
> Winnsboro after Dillsboro!

*NOW* he tells me! $%&#, $#@%, and another $#@&!

> Seriously, holler if you'd like to try and
> work up some figures sometime.

I want to be clear that I do NOT have oficial authorization to do anything about this, I'm just seeking information at this point to see if it's feasible. What ballpark are we talking here? Email me offline (consider this a "holler").

(I've often wished we could pick up the Spencer Shops and move the whole complex to Rockton -- or else move the R&R up to Spencer.)

> My thinking for a permanent steam program at
> SCRM: Get a Heisler! They move, are nimble,
> and have good pulling power for your hills.
> See if SERM would lease the Campbell
> Limestone engine... it's got good SC roots!

I'm told that we almost did get that engine (Santee Hardwood had her in SC, I forget the number). Unfortunately it was before we had a home, so it went to SERM instead. I've had designs on that engine for years.

A few other engines I've got designs on:

- L&C/H&B #32 at Monticello RR Museum
- L&C/Cliffside #40 at New Hope, PA
- The 2-6-0 at the Choo Choo Hotel in Chattanooga (it was used by Brooklyn Cooperage Co. in Sumter)
- R&R #19 in Greenwood, SC
- R&R #31 in Waycross, GA
- W&L/R&R #203 (could have bought her from Gray Tuttle but didn't have the $$$)
- E&M #5 in Richburg, SC (almost got that one but it can't leave Chester County)

While I'm dreaming, I'd also like a gutted Amtrak E unit (bloody nose scheme, to head up the display passenger train -- gutted because an E would look silly on our railroad and I want the engine room as display space), an operable Alco diesel, and an operable pure Baldwin diesel. The Air Force engines don't count, they were originally more like Limas and have been bastardized with Cats.

Going to ride the Durbin Rocket after the TRAIN convention next month. After that I may come home enamoured with Climaxes. :o)

mconrad@msmgmt.com


  
 
 Post subject: Re: Speaking of Shays
PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2003 9:24 am 

Hey Matt, Any chance your group could retrieve the remains of the swamp shay? It's on private property right? Maybe a nice tax write off for someone.

See ya - Mike

> *NOW* he tells me! $%&#, $#@%, and
> another $#@&!

> I want to be clear that I do NOT have
> oficial authorization to do anything about
> this, I'm just seeking information at this
> point to see if it's feasible. What ballpark
> are we talking here? Email me offline
> (consider this a "holler").

> (I've often wished we could pick up the
> Spencer Shops and move the whole complex to
> Rockton -- or else move the R&R up to
> Spencer.)

> I'm told that we almost did get that engine
> (Santee Hardwood had her in SC, I forget the
> number). Unfortunately it was before we had
> a home, so it went to SERM instead. I've had
> designs on that engine for years.

> A few other engines I've got designs on:

> - L&C/H&B #32 at Monticello RR
> Museum
> - L&C/Cliffside #40 at New Hope, PA
> - The 2-6-0 at the Choo Choo Hotel in
> Chattanooga (it was used by Brooklyn
> Cooperage Co. in Sumter)
> - R&R #19 in Greenwood, SC
> - R&R #31 in Waycross, GA
> - W&L/R&R #203 (could have bought
> her from Gray Tuttle but didn't have the
> $$$)
> - E&M #5 in Richburg, SC (almost got
> that one but it can't leave Chester County)

> While I'm dreaming, I'd also like a gutted
> Amtrak E unit (bloody nose scheme, to head
> up the display passenger train -- gutted
> because an E would look silly on our
> railroad and I want the engine room as
> display space), an operable Alco diesel, and
> an operable pure Baldwin diesel. The Air
> Force engines don't count, they were
> originally more like Limas and have been
> bastardized with Cats.

> Going to ride the Durbin Rocket after the
> TRAIN convention next month. After that I
> may come home enamoured with Climaxes. :o)


Yenko117@yahoo.com


  
 
 Post subject: What about Argent Lumber?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2003 12:24 pm 

I know you're feasting your eyes on standard-gauge stuff, but don't neglect some distinct possibilities with the Argent Lumber Co. steamers. Lots of the "swamp rats" survive, some in good homes and others in quite questionable circumstances. If I'm not mistaken, the Cradle of Forestry museum in Waycross also has the Argent Lumber loco that was outside the lumber co.'s hunting lodge in Bluffton, and Panama City, Fl. may still have the former "Petticoat Jct." cabbage-stacker. I even found what MAY have been an Argent loco in an auto/antiques junkyard along Rt. 17 back in the late 1980s; I wonder what happened to that one?

You can't go after the one in Mt. Pleasant, Iowa, however--I have dibs on that as a New Berlin & Winfield (Pa.) loco! <:-)

LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net


  
 
 Post subject: Re: Darn, we just released the flatcar from GSMR!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2003 1:20 pm 

> And every time some little thing in the
> drive train needs adjusting, you have to
> remove the affected truck and drop the gear
> case. There is a reason Shays were most
> popular!

> dave

But you don't have to do that very often! I do admit that you have to get down and get under to lube all of the U-joints and driveline journals, but in return you get an engine that is significantly faster than a Shay (or especially a Climax) and can still pull as much, thanks to the large cylinders. I learned to fire on a Heisler (Pickering 10 on the Klamath and Hoppow Valley) years ago and I probably have a soft spot for them. Now I am firing both Shays and a Heisler at Roaring Camp and Big Trees, and the Heisler comes off as a gutsy and rugged engine, certainly holding its own amongst the larger Shays there. I admit that it feels like a Mack truck compared to Cadillacs (the Shays), but that ain't necessarily bad!

Chris H.


holombo@pacbell.net


  
 
 Post subject: Re: Speaking of Shays
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 8:21 am 

> Hey Matt, Any chance your group could
> retrieve the remains of the swamp shay? It's
> on private property right? Maybe a nice tax
> write off for someone.

> See ya - Mike

I'm not sure I want that thing. I've seen it, climbed all over it, photographed it, and a friend got a bad case of poison ivy from it (he WILL pull weeds). All that's left is a Swiss cheese boiler, a couple frame beams, two partially scrapped trucks, half of the engine, and the wheels. I don't think you could even move it without damaging it. There's not enough left to restore, even cosmetically.

Plus, it's the wrong gauge. That's why I left out the Argent engines and a couple other three footers.

mconrad@msmgmt.com


  
 
 Post subject: Re: Speaking of Shays
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 9:58 am 

Not only is it the wrong guage; doesn't it have pole wheels?

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

> I'm not sure I want that thing. I've seen
> it, climbed all over it, photographed it,
> and a friend got a bad case of poison ivy
> from it (he WILL pull weeds). All that's
> left is a Swiss cheese boiler, a couple
> frame beams, two partially scrapped trucks,
> half of the engine, and the wheels. I don't
> think you could even move it without
> damaging it. There's not enough left to
> restore, even cosmetically.

> Plus, it's the wrong gauge. That's why I
> left out the Argent engines and a couple
> other three footers.


Surviving World Steam Project
james1@pernet.net


  
 
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