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 Post subject: Pullman Green Paint.......
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 4:36 pm 

I'm working on a project that requiers the use of Pullman Green paint. does anyone know what the mixture of paints are to achieve this? thanks in advance!

kbcotton@flash.net


  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pullman Green Paint.......
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 6:50 pm 

I have the Dupont number stuck away. I will get it and post it Tuesday.

Tim

fltenwheeler@aol.com


  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pullman Green Paint.......
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 7:32 pm 

> I have the Dupont number stuck away. I will
> get it and post it Tuesday.

> Tim

Tim -
I'm looking for the contact at the Dupont color lab archives. I have old Dupont Duco and Dulux numbers that the local jobber doesn't know how to decifer. I've emailed Dupont without a response.


  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pullman Green Paint.......
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 8:19 pm 

We have a paint sample from the company for a match.

Home Page - Pacific Southwest Ry Museum
jim@sdrm.org


  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pullman Green Paint.......
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 10:12 pm 

K7978U is the DuPont number for the Southern Railway Pullman green.

Bruce Backus


bebackus@bellsouth.net


  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pullman Green Paint.......
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:13 am 

Orange Empire's Mechanical Circular paint list shows two listings for Pullman Green. One is Sherman-Williams "Kemtone"/Transport Enamels No. 4813. The other is Dupont "Dulux" 4558-DH (this is from SP-UP information).

Our usage note for the S-W paint number is exterior and vestibule of our Pullman "Coydon." I recall that we had obtained a paint number from a handwritten note on the back of a Pacific Electric equipment diagram page as "Pullman Green" used for interurban car trucks. We got a gallon sample (in quart cans) of this paint and I applied some of it to a ceiling access panel from vestibule of our Pullman. The paint matched perfectly. But at this time I cannot recall if the paint was DuPont or S-W.

Please note that not all passenger cars were painted in "Pullman Green" or Olive. The Union Pacific and the Southern Pacific had their own standard color dating back at least to the Harriman era - this was a different shade of olive green. We show that color to have been DuPont "Dulux" 5502-DH.

The Santa Fe had yet a different green. More yellow and less brown -- slightly toward an apple green. We had ours mixed to match a sample that was behind window framing.

Hope this helps.

Brian Norden


  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pullman Green Paint.......
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 5:58 am 

> I'm working on a project that requiers the
> use of Pullman Green paint. does anyone know
> what the mixture of paints are to achieve
> this? thanks in advance!

This is one of those questions that comes up every few months. Based on our work at IRM and on research papers found in our Pullman Company records, there was NOT just one shade of Pullman Green. For instance, one specification might refer to No. 10 Pullman Green, another order might have used different shades and formulas. But the base colors used to make the mix were black and yellow.

Add to this the fact that Pullman itself may have changed shades ever so slightly over the years, there were company repaints, and that particular color could fade and weather into anything from an almost black to a light green and you have a recipe for almost infinite variations based on different memories and even 'good' period photo evidence.

As Brian Norder suggests the best bet is to color match a sample on the car, after locating a protected spot previously hidden behind molding, etc. In any event if you are using DuPont numbers you all may want to get a match, color drift card made, or conversion formula fiarly soon. They have exited that business - but in our area there are still companies who will try to cross reference records and get a new number and formula for paints now more available.

I bet this would be a good project for TRAIN or ARM - that is, to document and inventory paint formulas and samples. And perhaps to have color chips made for distribution. Of course, who would be available to volunteer to spend the time, and how would it be financed? Sell the color cards?

Bob Kutella

68trolley@comcast.net


  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pullman Green Paint.......
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 6:42 am 

Make it easy - go to the hobby shop, buy a little bottle of Floquil, paint a card and have the paint shop shoot and match it.

ave

irondave@bellsouth.net


  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pullman Green Paint.......
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:30 am 

Here is what I have found on Pullman Green.

The first number I came up with was Dupont 5502 this is from C&NW passenger locomotive paint diagrams.

Dupont 5502 crosses to PPG 81649 This is the color and paint that I have used and it looks like Pullman green to me.

Now it gets fun. PPG 81649 does NOT cross back to Dupont 5502.

PPG 81649 crosses to Dupont 4558. Dupont calls this color Pullman Green.

Now you take Dupont 4558. It crosses to PPG 42791.

Then take PPG 42791 and you will come back to Dupont 4558

That is 4 color numbers that in theory should be the same color.

Has any one come across a good number for CGW Maroon

I have the following number that are no longer in the system.
Dupont 35394
Dupont 9304
Rinshed Mason XL-6010

Thanks

Tim


fltenwheeler@aol.com


  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pullman Green Paint.......
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 9:14 am 

> This is one of those questions that comes up
> every few months. Based on our work at IRM
> and on research papers found in our Pullman
> Company records, there was NOT just one
> shade of Pullman Green. For instance, one
> specification might refer to No. 10 Pullman
> Green, another order might have used
> different shades and formulas. But the base
> colors used to make the mix were black and
> yellow.

> Add to this the fact that Pullman itself may
> have changed shades ever so slightly over
> the years, there were company repaints, and
> that particular color could fade and weather
> into anything from an almost black to a
> light green and you have a recipe for almost
> infinite variations based on different
> memories and even 'good' period photo
> evidence.

> As Brian Norder suggests the best bet is to
> color match a sample on the car, after
> locating a protected spot previously hidden
> behind molding, etc. In any event if you are
> using DuPont numbers you all may want to get
> a match, color drift card made, or
> conversion formula fiarly soon. They have
> exited that business - but in our area there
> are still companies who will try to cross
> reference records and get a new number and
> formula for paints now more available.

> I bet this would be a good project for TRAIN
> or ARM - that is, to document and inventory
> paint formulas and samples. And perhaps to
> have color chips made for distribution. Of
> course, who would be available to volunteer
> to spend the time, and how would it be
> financed? Sell the color cards?

> Bob Kutella

This is my two cents! Bob Kutella had a paint sample match to an interior window "Pullman Green" from the Dover Strait (heavyweight) in the IRM collection and assisted me in repairing a broken section (for the second time, an old railroad repair was evident). The original paint was not faded. His favorite paint company is Coronado, so here is the match:
Industrial Urethane Enamel M31-36 Clear Base
LB-5Y
YO-5Y
BV-24 (reading off the can lid).
After drying the match was fairly good but remember, the color is DARK so you had better use good light!
I also found a nearly full can in one of our archives of Dupont No. 11 Pullman Green, type 88-9?46 (the paint ran and covered the number).
In a conversation with Mr. Arthur Dubin, he identified this as the paint used for Grand Trunk Railway and later for Canadian National. It has more of a yellowish cast than the other. It surely would be good if the ARM Parts Committee or TRAIN would do a round robin on this topic as suggested.
At that point, I would be happy to set up some samples to a prescibed procedure for evaluation and comparison.
By the way, we are making headway in both Pullman wood car drawings index and locating heavyweight interior furnishings drawings for those doing car restoration.
Ted Anderson, IRM restoration volunteer & active in the Pullman Library there

tedander@core.com


  
 
 Post subject: Re: CGW Paint.......
PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 5:24 am 

> Has any one come across a good number for
> CGW Maroon

> I have the following number that are no
> longer in the system.
> Dupont 35394
> Dupont 9304
> Rinshed Mason XL-6010

> Thanks

> Tim

According to our research Rinshed Mason was specced out to supply the dark maroon used by EMD on the early F units. We do not have an equivalent current DuPont number so are color matching from a 1950's drift card.

Bob Kutella


68trolley@comcast.net


  
 
 Post subject: Re: paint drift cards
PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 4:01 pm 

> According to our research Rinshed Mason was
> specced out to supply the dark maroon used
> by EMD on the early F units. We do not have
> an equivalent current DuPont number so are
> color matching from a 1950's drift card.

Bob,

That is a very good method. The railroads often made up these samples, called drift cards, to use as a standard.

At Orange Empire we have been making up our own drift cards for any paint we use on the collection. That way if the paint goes out of production or formulas change, etc. we have a sample to get a new match in the future.

Brian Norden


  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pullman Green Paint.......
PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2003 12:33 am 

We did some matching for "Pullman Green" a couple of years ago. We'd also done some back in the late 1980's. Dupont 4558 mixed in 1987 is a much darker shade of green than 4558 mixed in 2000. The local Dupont rep says that's because they've changed the chemistry of the paint and the tints that make the color. According to him, the only way to closely match color is with a color sample card(drift card). I've experienced this problem with "CPR Tuscan Red" too.

We've taken paint samples off a Spokane Portland and Seattle coach that range in age from the mid teens through the late 40's. They are all allegedly "Pullman Green" but they are significantly different in saturation and hue.

What color of Pullman Green should you use? The color that was used on your artifact in the era you are trying to represent. Look for examples hidden behind windows and door frames, under rubber seals, or other places that were likely forgotten when the artifact was stripped or sanded. You can try and match the color to a model railway paint (or a mixture of several colors). Use that to create a sample card. Alternatively, if the surface that the paint sample is on can be removed, and you have at least a square inch, use that. Send the sample to the paint company's lab and they'll match it. We've had great service from US Paint but I'm sure others are good too.

Want more information? Take paint chips from these hidden locations and examine them under a microscope. I understand several recent artifact restorations have used microscopy to research the paint history.

Richard Anderson

> PPG 81649 crosses to Dupont 4558. Dupont
> calls this color Pullman Green.

> Now you take Dupont 4558. It crosses to PPG
> 42791.

> Then take PPG 42791 and you will come back
> to Dupont 4558

> That is 4 color numbers that in theory
> should be the same color.



Northwest Railway Museum
rra@trainmuseum.org


  
 
 Post subject: Re: paint drift cards
PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2003 3:30 am 

> Bob,

> That is a very good method. The railroads
> often made up these samples, called drift
> cards, to use as a standard.

> At Orange Empire we have been making up our
> own drift cards for any paint we use on the
> collection. That way if the paint goes out
> of production or formulas change, etc. we
> have a sample to get a new match in the
> future.

> Brian Norden

I was able to get several color drift cards for some of the Atlantic Coast Line equipment being restored at Thronateeska Heritage Center. When you make new cards, what kind and color of paper do you use? I would like to do this to have file documentation of the actual colors and types of paint used in each restoration.

Stephen Syfrett


ssyfrett@bellsouth.net


  
 
 Post subject: Re: paint drift cards
PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2003 5:29 am 

> I was able to get several color drift cards
> for some of the Atlantic Coast Line
> equipment being restored at Thronateeska
> Heritage Center. When you make new cards,
> what kind and color of paper do you use? I
> would like to do this to have file
> documentation of the actual colors and types
> of paint used in each restoration.

> Stephen Syfrett

We make drift cards for most of our color matched custom paints also. I prefer to use a plain unlined 3x5 white index card, although I suppose we should be using archival acid free stock. When the cards are thoroughly dry, we place them inside black paper envelopes to prevent UV deterioration, or place them in glassine envelopes inside a closed metal card file. Even in the relatively short time period we have been doing this, we have accumulated a sizable library of colors, and they have already proved their value as at least one formula has been discontinued by the mfr. and we had to do a new mix. We also keep a spreadsheet record of the pigment formula and base code, since this is often only recorded on the lid of the can; which we regard as somewhat perishable. It really simplifies re-ordering as the formula can be telephoned in and the paint is waiting when you go in to pick it up.

Bob Kutella


68trolley@comcast.net


  
 
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