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 Post subject: Re: P.R.R. 1361
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:46 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2006 1:18 am
Posts: 412
Location: San Francisco
Wowak wrote:
The "Historical Fabric" debate was resolved before she moved to Steamtown. Hacking off large chunks of the boiler vs. making a new one is irrelevant. Operating a steam locomotive isn't preservation of the item, it's preservation of the experience.

There is a difference between "replacement-in-kind," which is recognized as an acceptable treatment in the Secretary of the Interior Standards, and replacement with a new, non-historic design. This distinction may get fuzzy in down in the details -should replacing castings with weldments be acceptable? However, the scale of the correction required to make 1361's boiler FRA compliant would have to depart significantly from had been done during the "period of significance." Replacing side sheets to the original design (as well as staybolts, tubes, brake shoes, etc.) counts as preservation. Replacing the whole boiler with a new all-welded design may not.

I wish we could all agree upon a common language and principles for our preservation work. The Secretary of the Interior Standards could provide this, but I continue to hear statements that assume preservation is only about conservation.

All of that said, is the treatment issue really the thing holding the project back, or is that just speculation? I would think the issues are the need for money and a plan. It has got to be hard to raise more money for 1361 at this point, and I think the museum has other projects to worry about.

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 Post subject: Re: P.R.R. 1361
PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:07 pm 

Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:16 pm
Posts: 15
Please tell me the difference in what Cass is doing replacing the boiler on the Climax Locomotive that is being brought back from the dead, and the Boiler repairs and or replacement on 1361? Without either repair they cannot run-- with, the next generation can enjoy. Any other news?


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 Post subject: Re: P.R.R. 1361
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:07 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:04 pm
Posts: 63
Aren't both companies being managed by Larry Salone?


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 Post subject: Re: P.R.R. 1361
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:04 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:51 pm
Posts: 87
Location: Eastern Pennsylvania
I hope that the 1361 situation eventually gets resolved with the locomotive being repaired by a reputable shop like Strasburg. As a Pennsylvania resident, I'm constantly reminded of the 1361, since two of my vehicles have this license plate on them:

Image

I can't believe how poorly it appears that the Altoona group has handled this situation, and can only hope that the situation is eventually rectified and the 1361 can be returned to (full pressure) steam someday.

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 Post subject: Re: P.R.R. 1361
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:54 pm 

They seemed to have gotten some legs under the project. The tender was fully repaired and passed a leak test a few years back and was to be painted. The Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum has been very busy with the construction of their new roundhouse! Once that's done 1361s parts will be brought into the roundhouse to resume restoration. The boiler is still at EBT and was to be done within 3 years upon reading of an article.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj6TP15l ... e=youtu.be Video of the tender 2 years ago.
http://www.altoonamirror.com/page/conte ... ml?nav=742
This may be 2 years old but it delivers a promising message no matter what anyone says.


  
 
 Post subject: Re: P.R.R. 1361
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:02 am 

Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:29 am
Posts: 316
Location: Schuylkill County, PA
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:

Fallacy.

Please demonstrate where and when the owners of the locomotive have been open and welcome to outside offers to repair or remediate the current situation. I haven't seen any fundraising or volunteer opportunities. Have you?


Please explain to me how the absence of proof of offers for outside help somehow proves that outside help would be summarily rejected?

It's clear you're not fond of the museum management. You're welcome to that opinion. But listing the reasons why any and every steam restoration project is an uphill battle does nothing to prove that there is no possible scenario for running one of the most popular locomotives of all time.

You have every reason to be sceptical. I understand that. If you don't want to donate money to a steam project that might not go anywhere, you don't have to, but the restoration projects that have a 100% guarantee of success are few and far between. In any case, being angry on the internet definitely isn't contributing to any solution for #1361. At this point I would be content to see her put back together and on static display in that new roundhouse. What outcome would you like to see? How do you recommend getting there?


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 Post subject: Re: P.R.R. 1361
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:15 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8358
Location: Baltimore, MD
Interestingly enough, about a week after I typed those words, we saw realized with Long Island 39 the exact same type of solution many of us wished for years would happen with 1361.

There was openly expressed hostility by some on Long Island, even a member of the RMLI, about that proposal, and there was even at least one media report on Long Island to the effect of "Strasburg's gain is Long Island's loss". That move is perhaps only "palatable" because a "twin" loco remains on Long Island.

Nothing that I have seen in the past convinces me that a similar deal could have been reached with past Railroaders Memorial Museum management for an operating lease for 1361 at Strasburg (or anywhere else that would have been economically viable), especially when sister 3750 would have remained across the street at the Railroad Museum of Pa. In the past, too much "hype" and "pride" went into the locomotive as "Altoona's." (Mind you, if you made me a benevolent rail preservation czar, several pieces now at the RR Museum of Pa. would be on extended loan to Altoona as soon as the roundhouse was done, which would ameliorate the pain significantly.......)

But, you know, having seen the proposed agreement with LIRR 39, I'm convinced anything can happen. I'm willing to "wipe the slate clean" and forget the past, and see just what can come out of the current management of the Museum and its neighbors/partners--from NS to the Everett RR to, oh, I dunno, the Western Maryland Scenic? But just as the RMLI had to divorce itself from the idea of running 39 ON Long Island, Altoona (not just the Museum, but the locale) has to divorce itself from the idea that 1361 can be restored to operation without a complete rebuild including a half-or-more new boiler AND operate regularly and locally. Hell, am I the only one that wants to see a NS excursion/NRHS Convention line-up of 4501, 1361, 611, 1218, and the "Executive Tuxedo F's"?


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 Post subject: Re: P.R.R. 1361
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:52 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:04 pm
Posts: 63
I believe RMM still has the State grant Governor Rendell gave them for 1361. There are funds for the rebuilding process, the question is how much and how far will those funds get.

Public relations are not the strong suit at RMM which is a not for profit entity. President Andy Mulhollen and Larry Salone's contract management team has perpetuated a total blackout on news of 1361 for the better part of three years.

And, as one poster recommended, perhaps its time to put the engine together as a static display, place it in the newly completed roundhouse stall, and use it as an interpretative display.


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 Post subject: Re: P.R.R. 1361
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:08 pm 

Explain this, a museum invests hundreds of thousands of dollars if not a million into the restoration of this locomotive and you just expect them to put it all back together for display? Absolutely not! It'd be a waste if the RMM did that. All that work to get it operational just to make it go back on display? Again, no. That won't happen as it would appear. Their goal is to finish the project and if you read the article I posted in an earlier comment above you'd know that the new managment of the RMM has things more dialed down. Time will tell but I'd almost assure you it will get done.


  
 
 Post subject: Re: P.R.R. 1361
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:36 pm 

Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:04 pm
Posts: 63
For well over a decade, the citizens of Pennsylvania and elected officials invested the lion's share of the money in the 1361 project, not RMM. Grants and member items that could have been used in other historic rail projects in the state instead went to a project with no cohesive rebuilding plan (certainly none made public even when PA taxpayers footed most of the bill), poor oversight, and general befuddlement, hubris, and malaise by successive RMM Boards.

Dialing it down would be a cosmetic restoration. Nothing would be more pleasing than to see a K4s operate again, but unless a foundation donates the required funds needed for that, it would premature to think the Pennsylvania taxpayers would continue to foot the bill for a project that up to this point, has seen little return in their investment.


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 Post subject: Re: P.R.R. 1361
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:56 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 3731
Location: Maine
Perhaps the solution is to hand the rebuild over to a benevolent tyrant? Find a person whose only function would be to determine a funding plan, contract a known organization to tie the (many) loose ends together, and see it brought to a favorable closure. People won't complain too much about the underwriting once they see her fired and wailing by at 50 mph.
"For God so loved the world, that he didn't send a committee."

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 Post subject: Re: P.R.R. 1361
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:50 pm 

Pulled from the article I posted above:
People have suggested the museum should give the K-4 to some organization that could get it done, Salone said.

He doesn't want to hear it.

"It's the museum's project," he said.


  
 
 Post subject: Re: P.R.R. 1361
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:43 am 

Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:29 am
Posts: 316
Location: Schuylkill County, PA
SPsteambuff wrote:
Explain this, a museum invests hundreds of thousands of dollars if not a million into the restoration of this locomotive and you just expect them to put it all back together for display? Absolutely not! It'd be a waste if the RMM did that.


I respectfully disagree. It would be a bigger waste to leave the engine in pieces scattered across Pennsylvania.


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 Post subject: Re: P.R.R. 1361
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:58 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:47 pm
Posts: 475
Wowak wrote:
SPsteambuff wrote:
Explain this, a museum invests hundreds of thousands of dollars if not a million into the restoration of this locomotive and you just expect them to put it all back together for display? Absolutely not! It'd be a waste if the RMM did that.


I respectfully disagree. It would be a bigger waste to leave the engine in pieces scattered across Pennsylvania.


While I agree that having 1361 in pieces across the state is a huge waste, after all the time and money that has been put into this engine, the RMM is really in a do or die situation. The bulk of the railfan/rail preservation community would not be quiet about how they felt if after all that has happened, the RMM just put it back together and let it sit. From a PR standpoint, not getting the thing running again would be a nightmare.

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 Post subject: Re: P.R.R. 1361
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:51 pm 

Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:16 pm
Posts: 15
Despite everything that has been said and done, the population in general want to see the project completed.
The ARRM could do themselves a HUGE favor by letting real news on the status of the 1361, and the proposed solution to bring her back to life.
If they don't have the $$ to finish, a budgetary amount is needed to be known.
People are a forgiving bunch if given a chance, but they do bear a grudge when their nose is being rubbed in the dirt. In this case, no news isn't good news, and I think folks think their being stonewalled when their was in all probability a series of pretty bad errors in judgement. Not saying folks wanted a pound of flesh, but denying the problem cause a lot of the ill will.
I can't think of any logical reason to not tell people what is going on with this project, or the roundhouse (which is a separate issue).
Again--
1. what is needed ?- with a qualified explanation
2. How much $$ is needed.
Can't be all that hard


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