While I would normally gladly sign a petition like that, I am sorry but the person who created that petition couldn't have picked a more partisan inappropriate website for such a non partisan issue!

There is no way I will give my email to that website to get bombarded with all their propaganda! At the rate we are headed their boss may have the IRS audit my ass just for unsubscribing from their email! :) On a more serious note from what I gather much of the local support for the railroads is coming from good old fashioned god, gun and country loving individuals whose rights moveon.org and their people would so quickly like to trample, so why host such a non partisan survey on such a partisan website?

To play the role of contrarian here, may I point out a few things:

1. CMRR is a for-profit company. Sure, they use volunteers, who are sometimes gifted "stock" but essentially they are the same as General Motors, IKEA and/or CSX.

2. CMRR is allegedly in violation of their contractual agreement to have the whole line open by now. While their volunteers appear to be working, they aren't that close to the goal.

3. Given that CMRR is a for-profit corporation who is allegedly not living up to their contractual agreement, aren't those who sign the petition essentially doing the same as signing a "Save the Yugo", "Save Studebaker" or "Save (insert now defunct company who made bad business decisions) petition?



I thought this was about saving CMRR, not feeling good about yourself?



Once again, I though the goal was to save the CMRR? Wouldn't you rather spent slightly more time doing something more effective? The goal isn't to save time. Why not write real letters? Potentially more effective, slightly more time.

4. The "Well even if it isn't effective, it just takes a few minutes" argument is a pretty bad one. Why waste your time if it isn't effective, period? I mean, the mayor of Kingston was willing to potentially break Federal and State law by parking a city dump truck across the railroad. Do you think he's going to be swayed by some person in Stubenville, Ohio signing a petition on the internet? Other than making yourself feel good and giving yourself the opportunity to say "I did something" when you actually didn't, you are not doing anything to help CMRR. Remember the "KONY 2012" video that hit YouTube last year? Well millions of people watched it, and Joseph Kony is still loose in the jungles near Uganda.

Internet activism of this type typically doesn't work. Just as typing here won't clear the remaining trees and overgrowth on the CMRR mainline, signing a petition and bragging that you did on RYPN won't change the situation. If you believe otherwise, well, I have tickets on a luxury train that runs from Washington, D.C. to White Sulphur Springs I can sell you...

I guess taking the time to explain why the petition is a waste of time is more productive than actually signing it. I don't see this petition as having any negative impact.

In the vein of those who say there should be both a railroad and a trail, I urge those here to sign the petition AND send that letter to the paper, the mayor, and others, too.

Not that any of this would do much good as far as the mayor is concerned; he has shown himself to be quite a bully, and not just with this railroad. I wish I could understand what makes such a person tick. About all we can do is hope he is replaced with someone better--and that's going to be up to the people of Kingston. In that respect, all these letters and the like will be best as encouragement for someone else to take on the mayor in the next election.

I hope someone does; I do think we're going to need that railroad (and others) back later on with a combination of increasing oil and gasoline prices, along with an aging population that won't always be able to drive (guess who has been having night vision problems). Just because it's a tourist attraction now doesn't meant that's all it will ever be. Note that the Strasburg Rail Road is not only a tourist line, but is also a freight hauler--and its management has made comments in support of rail passenger service development beyond Strasburg and beyond historic preservation.

THANK YOU to all the people that signed the petition, and are helping to get the word out!

To the negative people (trolls), it's people like you who have discouraged me from posting before, but no more. I posted this when I had just gotten home after a very long day at work, I saw the latest news;
http://www.kingstonx.com/2013/05/16/cit ... over-yard/
and decided to do something about it however worthless in your opinion. I emailed as many people as it could possibly be relevant to.

-If anything, at least the hardworking volunteers at CMRR can see the petition and
know that they have a tremendous amount of support. Can you imagine
having to work there while having the prospect of being evicted over your head? I
can tell you it must SUCK!

-We are not talking about large congressional issues affecting millions of voters, this
is about an issue in a small town, do you think the mayor and some of the other
officials involved might actually look at the Internet?

-At the very least we are increasing awareness of the situation, at least in my
case to people who are outside this circle.

-I thought this was site was about Railway PRESERVATION, not critique of other
peoples actions, sometimes reading this site it seems that no matter what is done
somebody has to come along with only negative things to say.

-Can we do more of course, I personally am taking the time to write the mayor,
various newspapers and blogs as time allows, but there always has to be a start,
if one of the naysayers is willing to organize a rally or protest I will deal with the
repercussions to my work schedule and make time to attend.

-It would be great to hire a lobbyist, etc. at that point, why not make an offer of
say 10 or 20 million to buy the ROW, as long as you are writing the checks.

-If you don't have anything good to say don't say it, and by the way how about
signing the petition anyway.

My signing had nothing to do with partisanship. Railroads, railroad history, railroad lore, and how it effected our nation are my interests...not how anyone here votes or believes how things should be.

I feel good about signing the petition since it is the only way I can assist the CMRR at this time.

The fact that it is via MoveOn.org's petition website doesn't matter to me. Unlike some people, I can still make choices without following the lemmings. If someone wouldn't sign the petition because they are unable to choose what to read, believe, or act upon from the various websites...including MoveOn.org...then there isn't anything that can be done about that.

Let's all do our best to keep the social, political, religious, racial...ad infinitum...issues out of this forum...and go forward dreaming of 4-8-4's racing across the country.

:-)

I know it hurts, but healthy skepticism is the best gift you could possibly be given. Naysaying/ trolling is not. (naysaying is not quite trolling but it is certainly far closer to trolling than skepticism.)

Remember skepticism is not being against something, but merely arming oneself with a full understanding of both the good and the bad. That is valuable because it gets you "out of your head" and lets you see problems you CAN fix. It's an excellent mental capacity to have. I would even go so far as to say you can't succeed without it.

Naysaying vs. skepticism are diametrically opposed in both operating principle and spirit by which they are given.

I'm not trolling. I'm just skeptical that signing a petition will do anything, other than making you feel good about yourself because you "raised awareness" and "did something" when you probably did neither.

If you want to save the CMRR there are probably more effective, concrete steps you can take than this nonsense.

Saying that signing the petition does no harm is a bad argument. It also does no good. No matter how little time it takes, you've done nothing to save the CMRR while patting yourself on the back.

It is a sad commentary in the America of 2013 that meaningless acts of symbolism trump concrete action.

Welcome to Rypn Trolley 516. Important to understand that this site does serve as an effective meeting place for many folks involved in the railway preservation "industry" in one facet or another. Quite often there are threads that examine interesting and important aspects of the field and prove to be valuable learning tools.

One downside you'll need to learn to live with is that there are 5/6 resident trolls on this site ( I call them 'toids as in negatoids, as they're always negative) who are the classic Monday morning quarterbacks, know everything there is to know about all subjects, live to celebrate failures and most important of all have never led a meaningful project from conception to the finish line and never will.

Sadly, they are an ingrained part of the deal and the sooner you come to be at peace with that and essentially ignore their nonsense, then you'll be able to gain the good available hereon.

This thread has only drawn 2 of them out so far, a really strong toid magnet can on occasion draw all 6 and most of them for repeated bites at the apple. Once you learn their behavior it's actually quite amusing to watch them at work!

Welcome aboard, enjoy the journey!

Ross Rowland

I gladly signed it and the sweat equity of these volunteers requires support not naysaying armchair generals with a overblown valuation and demonstration of their own knowledge.
I wish the CMRR glad tidings and good wishes in surmounting yet another considerable hurdle. A man made hurdle, rather than the tough task of rebuilding a line tie by tie, rail by rail let alone the funding challenges. Pragmatic optimism will always win over free floating skepticism that takes no physical effort to produce. I hope everyone here takes the time to support our "brothers in arms"..in the preservation movement.

And there are others who revel in feats of past glory, while calling others names.

What Rowland calls "nattering nabobs of negativity," others will call "skeptical, cynical realists." And far too often, this cynicism and skepticism has come from years or decades of hard experience--repeated failures and frustrations as well as successes.

Think of Rocky the Squirrel telling Bullwinkle ("Watch me pull a rabbit out of a hat!") Moose "But that trick NEVER works!" Yeah, he's negative--but he's still right. It's not "negative" to point out to the person trying to grab twenty lottery tickets he really can't afford that even with twenty tickets, his odds are on par with being struck by lightning. That's reality. And he still can't afford those tickets.

Signing a petition like this, and then bragging about it, is akin to putting twenty-five cents in the donation kettle beside PRR 1361/B&LE 643/C&O 614/Reading 2100/SP&S 700/Frisco 1522/AT&SF 2926 and them making up a button saying "I did MY part to get this loco under steam!"

Yes, we've been wrong. I've repeated the constant assertions by Amtrak operating officials that there was "no way in Hell" a PRR GG1 would ever roll a wheel on Amtrak's tracks again--and then some of their superiors ordered them to "make it happen" for Washington Union Terminal's centennial. I've repeated the claims by Conrail and NS officials that we'd never see steam on the Horse Shoe Curve again, or at least not without diesel assistance. We're at the point where I need to visit the grave of one of them and leave a bottle of crow sauce--the others are still pointing out the diesels and the fact that they actually ran in a couple notches.

But there is far too often a fine line between relentless optimism and delusion, as we've seen with the current U.S. President, his supporters, and his two (or far more!) most recent predecessors and THEIR supporters. Unbridled optimism and boosterism often rides hand in hand with religious-style faith or zealotry. Supposing this CMRR project fails (not wishing it, just supposing). Does one blame the evil forces of the Mayor/Satan? Does one say "we just didn't pray hard enough/get enough signatures"? Or does one objectively assess the faults of the project and the protocols of the current situation, find compromise, and work out a lasting solution that saves at least something of the desired objectives?

Mr. Rowland,

The only troll here is yourself. You resort to the lowest common denominator, name calling. This is such a sad last chapter for someone that has done great things in their life, to resort to name calling and ad homenim attacks. In the end, it only reflects poorly upon yourself.

Also, I'd be careful when you accuse others of not completing meaningful projects.

David M. Wilkins
Yellow Ribbon Express, Missouri

I think the only individuals who can weigh what is happening with the CMRR and have the their opinions create real world results, either success or failure are those involved with CMRR.
Pundits and skeptics from without from a distance are a dime a dozen. Myself included.

Stereotyping this effort with the baggage of the past means nothing as the past experience is past and is prone to post editorializing.
This thread began simply enough and degenerated to a clash of egos.
What does that tell us?

Again thank you for all the people who have signed the petition, and raised awareness to the situation in other ways.

If you haven't signed please do so at the link below;
http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/ulster ... by=7898224

Regarding comments that were made;

-I did not get involved with this to "feel good about myself" I feel very good
about myself regardless of signing any petition. The reality is I own my own
business and work very long hours, I am even going to meet with clients this
Sunday afternoon! I will be doing what I can, I am sure many others on this site
are in the same boat.

-If you have advice as to better ways to help them, please contribute those ideas
as opposed to deriding this petition. I have never done this before, so to those
who may have had experience with this in a different situation, can you give
actual examples of what has worked and what doesn't?

-At the very least as I stated earlier, even if it does nothing else it shows the
volunteers they are supported.

-Please if you are not interested in signing, believe it is a waste of time, or just
want to argue with someone, go on to comment on another post and leave this
one alone.

My thanks to the 2 toids active in this thread for the above posts which strongly validate my warning message to our newcomer.

Couldn't have asked for better illustrations of my points.

Ross Rowland