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 Post subject: Re: Please sign the petition to help save the CMRR
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:26 pm 

Joined: Sun May 20, 2007 10:27 am
Posts: 167
Location: New Haven Ct area
Just wondering does the CMRR have a true business plan? When I read the debates online between the pro trail vs. pro rail it usually turns into a discussion about who will bring in more "leaf peepers" in the fall tourist season. On the other hand as a casual observer who has a good friend up that way but doesn't know too much else about the railroad I have never seen a better situated line with more potential than this one, and it isn't your normal tourists.

The CMRR line happens to be suited a very short train ride away from one of the largest cities in the USA with some of the lowest car ownership and highest reliance on railroads/public transportation in the country. This same population also has some of the highest disposable incomes in the country and by the way if that doesn't get any better this railroad happens to run by a very popular and nice ski slope. At the base of Belaire ski slope is actually a rail yard. If I were running the railroad forget about the debate if bike or train is the best way to get people to look at the leaves. On the other hand think a bit bigger, think the vision should be a train that by day ferries skiers between their hotels and the slopes while at night time the train takes the yuppie skiers out to the high end restaurants and bars of downtown Kingston. If you consider what it costs to go skiing the people who are out there to ski are already prepared to spend good amounts of money. While I doubt mayor asshole could care less about a little petition signed by people far outside his voting district I am sure the idea of millions of dollars a year in added commerce from a winter ski train would make him a very quick supporter.

Has this path ever been studied? I guess I could see how it is kind of hard to work the financials on a build it they will come plan, but I have never seen a better located tourist rail line than this one in my life. This thing runs right behind all the local hotels, has a yard in front of a ski slop that brings in tens of thousands of people a day, and if properly marketed in NYC could bring in train loads of people none of whom can take a car if they want to!


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 Post subject: Re: Please sign the petition to help save the CMRR
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:23 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3032
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
adammil1 wrote:
Has this path [winter ski train service] ever been studied? I guess I could see how it is kind of hard to work the financials on a build it they will come plan, but I have never seen a better located tourist rail line than this one in my life. This thing runs right behind all the local hotels, has a yard in front of a ski slop that brings in tens of thousands of people a day, and if properly marketed in NYC could bring in train loads of people none of whom can take a car if they want to!


An excellent observation, and one I wouldn't have thought of, at least partially due to not living in the area. I imagine part of the problem, besides a possible lack of vision on the part of CMRR management, would be establishing the connecting service to New York. That would involve dealing with Amtrak, CSX, Metro-North, and who knows who else.

Having said that, this suggests one of the roles of a really good board of directors should be to put their heads together to look at possibilities other board members and the executive director may have missed.

Now, how tough might it be to set up that mainline connecting service? (Yeah, I know, it would be tough. . .I've had just a little experience, unfortunately. . .)


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 Post subject: Re: Please sign the petition to help save the CMRR
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:49 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:46 am
Posts: 2447
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
And there are others who revel in feats of past glory, while calling others names.

What you call "past glory", I call "a track record".
Half empty: half full.

Quote:
What Rowland calls "nattering nabobs of negativity," others will call "skeptical, cynical realists."

I don't think "skeptical or realist" mean what you think they mean :) I am both of those things and I Get Projects Done with a high success rate. I do that because I am a dreamer - I dare to believe the project can be done in the first place [which you do not, notably]; a skeptic, I am able to fully understand the issues and challenges as they actually are; and a realist in that I can navigate a win through those issues and challenges.

Quote:
And far too often, this cynicism and skepticism has come from years or decades of hard experience--repeated failures and frustrations as well as successes.

Why are you having frustration? Because you were doing something that wasn't working. OK so figure it out and adapt. Of course that's hard so it's easy not to. Forgive yourself and get back on the horse. Don't get cynical.

Quote:
Think of Rocky the Squirrel telling Bullwinkle ("Watch me pull a rabbit out of a hat!") Moose "But that trick NEVER works!" Yeah, he's negative--but he's still right.

False example. Bullwinkle is a known quantity to Rocky. J. Random newbie showing up on this forum, is not a known quantity* and you have no idea what he's capable of, and you can't really tell from internet postings.

* you say you've seen people "just like him"? What does "like" mean? Those are similarities that you are projecting, which reflects you, not reality! That'll make you react the same way and sound like a broken record.

Quote:
It's not "negative" to point out to the person trying to grab twenty lottery tickets he really can't afford that even with twenty tickets, his odds are on par with being struck by lightning. That's reality. And he still can't afford those tickets.

Excuse me, you do not decide what reality is. Reality is what it is, and it doesn't care what you think of it. New sig. My relationship to reality is my own. As for lottery, only played it twice, and that's how I got a hy-rail truck.

Quote:
Yes, we've been wrong. I've repeated the constant assertions by Amtrak operating officials that there was "no way in Hell" a PRR GG1 would ever roll a wheel on Amtrak's tracks again--and then some of their superiors ordered them to "make it happen" for Washington Union Terminal's centennial. I've repeated the claims by Conrail and NS officials that we'd never see steam on the Horse Shoe Curve again, or at least not without diesel assistance.

Then make those statements?????

Look, it's one thing to say "I think you're gonna run into big problems doing that, and here are the three problems I ran into, and for each of those problems I'll tell you what I did or foresaw doing to get around them. Hopefully you can do better than me. Let me know if there's any other way I can help."

It's quite another to say "It can't be done, give it up."

Naysaying is not a component of progress.

Edit: to tone it down as it was misguided.


Last edited by robertmacdowell on Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Please sign the petition to help save the CMRR
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:18 am 

Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:07 am
Posts: 328
Huhhh...


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 Post subject: Re: Please sign the petition to help save the CMRR
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:23 am 

Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 8:54 pm
Posts: 1202
Many thanks to all who have signed.

If nothing else, this helps to lessen the impact of the petition that the opposition has been touting (see below). Note that they fail to mention tearing out the CMRR. If that was in the statement, they would have far less signatures.

http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/maketh ... l-mountain


Thanks again,

Ernie Hunt
CMRR


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 Post subject: Re: Please sign the petition to help save the CMRR
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:07 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3032
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Just took a look at both petitions, and a couple of things stood out. One, the pro-rail petition is "winning" with a larger number of signatures (1,680 vs. 1,225). Second item, the pro-trail crowd is much more regional (almost all New York state, indeed several specific towns) than the pro-rail bunch, which has signatures from all around. The pro-rail bunch also has more in the way of comments vs. just names. There were a couple of pro-trail signers who also emphasized the importance of having both, suggesting, as Mr. Hunt does, that the pro-trail people deliberately kept out the bit about tearing up the railroad, and perhaps thought mentioning that would adversely affect their signature collection.

Final decisions remain, of course, with the elected officials in this case. However, one thing they should consider is that difference in where the signatures are coming from. Sure, I know some people argue that an outsider signing a petition doesn't do much because they are from out of the area and don't vote in local elections. In this case, though, if you are wanting to bring in money FROM OUTSIDE, and not just have something for people who are there, then you need to listen to some people FROM OUTSIDE.

Put it another way--the railroad brings in people and their MONEY from OUTSIDE. It's additional money that wouldn't be there if it weren't for the railroad. The trail promoters and users are already there. They're already spending whatever they're spending now.

Another way to look at this would be to consider the customer base of whatever industry is there. One of the businesses that is mentioned is a shipyard. That shipyard brings in money from outside. How many boats or ships would that yard build, and how much money would it make, if it only sold ships and boats to people in the county? How much of its revenue, and thus the jobs it supports, comes from money that comes from OUTSIDE?

In short, this demographic strongly suggests, at least to me, that the trail promoters have it wrong in that the trail will be a good economic development tool. The railroad is better by virtue of having customers and interest from OUTSIDE, with the additional money. And the railroad is, despite the flapdoodle about paint, environmentally friendly, in that we're not talking about new construction, as would be the case for a new highway, or even the disruption that would be caused by doing a proper trail conversion. The State of West Virginia found that out years ago when it converted the Greenbriar division to a rail trail, finding it cost almost as much as converting the railroad to a road; and of course, there's still a lot of common maintenance, such as tree trimming, bridge maintenance, and drainage attention, which the trail people don't mention. . .

Now, the question becomes, are the local politicians, including that mayor, willing to really look at this in this way? If so, would they be big enough to admit they didn't have all the information they needed for a proper decision? I've got news for you, it's not really a crime to be ignorant, especially if someone you've been relying on for your information may have left some key pieces out. It takes a big person to admit to an error. It's not the sign of weakness some people make it out to be. I really do admire people who are willing to do that.

And just out of curiosity, I wonder if any of those elected officials are aware of this site, and not only of comments like those here, but of the record of activity that is supplied by Mr. Hunt on the long-running news thread he sends here. Anyone will tell you that volunteers are hard to come by, and volunteers who have worked for years like those of the railroad aren't exactly common. It's not a group you want to dismiss or disrespect so lightly.


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 Post subject: Re: Please sign the petition to help save the CMRR
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:37 am 
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I have been told by several sources that "toid" is an Easternism for "turd" (pardon my language) and as such people might indeed take offense to it. Please don't use this term going forward. Thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: Please sign the petition to help save the CMRR
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:13 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:19 pm
Posts: 1604
Location: Pottstown,Pa.
My thanks to the moderator for his polite admonishment. No disrespect meant to any turds as they at least are part of a critical positive biological process which is more than can be said for those that the now banned T word was referring to.

Henchforth the guilty ones shall be referred to as NNN's ( nattering nabobs of negativism) so that we stay PC.

Ross Rowland


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 Post subject: Re: Please sign the petition to help save the CMRR
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:53 am 

Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 8:25 am
Posts: 133
Location: Across the river from Baldwin's on the Naugy
Quote:
I have been told by several sources that "toid" is an Easternism for "turd" (pardon my language) and as such people might indeed take offense to it. Please don't use this term going forward. Thank you.


Actually it is "Brooklynese" - an old, almost defunct dialect.

"Toidy-toid & toid" meant to denote 33rd St & 3rd Ave in the foreign country of Manhattan.

Also "factoid" (fact/toid) is part of the American lexicon.

Even though I will admit that this happened before PC became paramount.

Peace, love & Cherry Garcia - and Spiro T Agnew!


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 Post subject: Re: Please sign the petition to help save the CMRR
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:15 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2438
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
co614 wrote:
My thanks to the moderator for his polite admonishment. No disrespect meant to any turds as they at least are part of a critical positive biological process which is more than can be said for those that the now banned T word was referring to.

Henchforth the guilty ones shall be referred to as NNN's ( nattering nabobs of negativism) so that we stay PC.

Ross Rowland


Mr. Rowland,

Thank you for agreeing to engage people in a constructive manner. I know name-calling is one of our primal urges as humans, but it really does not add much to the debate. Your new direction is much appreciated. Also, thank you for not threatening to sue RYPN and its directors and moderators out of existence, like one of the last times your posts were moderated.

David Wilkins
Litigious, MO

_________________
--
David M. Wilkins

"They Love Him for the Enemies He Has Made!"


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 Post subject: Re: Please sign the petition to help save the CMRR
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:20 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8354
Location: Baltimore, MD
robertmacdowell wrote:
Quote:
Yes, we've been wrong. I've repeated the constant assertions by Amtrak operating officials that there was "no way in Hell" a PRR GG1 would ever roll a wheel on Amtrak's tracks again--and then some of their superiors ordered them to "make it happen" for Washington Union Terminal's centennial. I've repeated the claims by Conrail and NS officials that we'd never see steam on the Horse Shoe Curve again, or at least not without diesel assistance.

Then why did you make those statements?????


*I* didn't.

I simply repeated (at the time) the assertions of those in a FAR, FAR better position to know this stuff than I ever was or will be: The people who actually worked in a position of authority for Amtrak, Conrail, and Norfolk Southern. Not some lowly track gang member--people in division headquarters, overseeing operations, and (in one case) the very person charged with approving whether or not a GG1 could be transported down the Corridor. As I said, the one Conrail/NS official is now dead; he explicitly said "it'll never happen" with regards to steam on the Curve, and he was a card-carrying railfan and photographer.

This is simply a dramatic demonstration that "the only constant is change."


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 Post subject: Re: Please sign the petition to help save the CMRR
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:12 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:19 pm
Posts: 1604
Location: Pottstown,Pa.
Two down......four to go.

Ross Rowland

Anti-NNNville,USA


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 Post subject: Re: Please sign the petition to help save the CMRR
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:56 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:46 am
Posts: 2447
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
robertmacdowell wrote:
Then why did you make those statements?????


*I* didn't.

I simply repeated (at the time)

Did you repeat it to critique it? Or to assert it? If the latter, then yeah, you did say it.

Quote:
the assertions of those in a FAR, FAR better position to know this stuff than I ever was or will be: The people who actually worked in a position of authority for Amtrak, Conrail, and Norfolk Southern. Not some lowly track gang member--people in division headquarters, overseeing operations...

So what rank, and proximity to the decision point, makes naysaying into not-naysaying? I've talked directly to deciders and been given a flat "no", and then worked the problem and turned the no into a yes. If that couldn't be done, salesmen wouldn't exist as a job title.

So no, not even the decider can safely declare "no". Hence I say it's all naysaying.


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 Post subject: Re: Please sign the petition to help save the CMRR
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:47 pm 

Joined: Sun May 20, 2007 10:27 am
Posts: 167
Location: New Haven Ct area
J3a-614 wrote:
adammil1 wrote:
Has this path [winter ski train service] ever been studied? I guess I could see how it is kind of hard to work the financials on a build it they will come plan, but I have never seen a better located tourist rail line than this one in my life. This thing runs right behind all the local hotels, has a yard in front of a ski slop that brings in tens of thousands of people a day, and if properly marketed in NYC could bring in train loads of people none of whom can take a car if they want to!


An excellent observation, and one I wouldn't have thought of, at least partially due to not living in the area. I imagine part of the problem, besides a possible lack of vision on the part of CMRR management, would be establishing the connecting service to New York. That would involve dealing with Amtrak, CSX, Metro-North, and who knows who else.

Having said that, this suggests one of the roles of a really good board of directors should be to put their heads together to look at possibilities other board members and the executive director may have missed.

Now, how tough might it be to set up that mainline connecting service? (Yeah, I know, it would be tough. . .I've had just a little experience, unfortunately. . .)


The path from NYC to Kingston is probably pretty simple. Though not as good as rail service the whole way worst case you can probably ship them up to Kingston by bus if you can't get rail service the whole trip, then transfer to train but there is Amtrak service to Rhinebeck not far across the river. How hard would it be to get Amtrak to offer special service for a weekend train if you could actually fill the thing up? It would probably require some real support and buyin from the state but I think the market and destination couldn't be more ideal. Heck one other idea perhaps someone could get 614 to run the train from Hoboken to Kingston with the CMRR finalizing the trip to Belayre out from Kingston! :)


I have never ridden on the CSMRR but I have driven Route 28 up to Shandaken and it is beautiful. I can only imagine what it would be like to have a real ski train service ferrying people up to the resorts, as well as the slopes and to and from the city at night. Worst case you may need some shuttle service to move people some of the way. I think the real thing is how much $$ is a hiker bringing into the area? Perhaps they fill thier tank of gas along the way, $50, maybe they get something to eat for lunch $20, and that is it. On the other hand Skiers who come spend the weekend at a resort and have a convenient train to take them into town could probably easily pour $500-$600 each on a given weekend into the area. This mayor may be an asshole but if the train could be used as a tool to bring in the $$ I think he would be a lot more friendly towards this. Has this ever been considered? I can't imagine a nicer place with a better market to support such an effort.


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 Post subject: Re: Please sign the petition to help save the CMRR
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:54 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3032
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
More keeping an eye on the opposition:

http://www.co.ulster.ny.us/planning/ucp ... o_cmrt.pdf

http://www.watershedpost.com/2013/lette ... ompany-inc

http://www.dailyfreeman.com/articles/20 ... 680961.txt

http://www.dailyfreeman.com/articles/20 ... =fullstory

http://dailyfreeman.com/articles/2013/0 ... ource=jBar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06M-EOgUHkg

http://www.dailyfreeman.com/articles/20 ... 995811.txt


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