I've posted this in the Railfanning section, in a thread about the limited Amtrak service we have, and it seems appropriate to repost it here, because of certain similarities in the opposition.

For the record, this is in reference to "All Aboard Florida," a proposal by the Florida East Coast Railway to reenter the passenger market. Partially driven by Florida traffic congestion, higher gasoline prices, the observed changing shift away from cars, plus hopes of more property development, the FEC is working at returning to privately operated passenger service.

http://www.allaboardflorida.com/

However, not everyone is happy with the idea:

http://www.floridanotallaboard.com/

https://www.facebook.com/floridanotallaboard

To tell you the truth, the first time I saw this, I asked the fellow in Florida who forwarded it to me, "Are these guys real? I say, this looks more like a spoof of NIMBYism than a real effort." His reply was that these guys are real, and really are afraid of trains, apparently.

I bring this up because one of the things that stood out about this bunch, particularly on their Facebook page, was how much they sounded like the trail people in New York. All the elements are there--the trains will need a subsidy, questions about rich people making money off the trains at public expense, the notion that railroads are outmoded, concerns about safety and noise and pollution (as if the highway system doesn't have those things in far greater measure and doesn't need a subsidy, either)--even awful graphics and the talk about "stopping the choo choo."

I declare, these guys would be at home in the pages of "The Onion."

It's also another example of how rail promoters, including heritage people, are "red headed stepchildren" who can't "get no. . ."--no, I won't say it here, I've said it often enough, and to say it again might upset certain people.

Ding Ding. We have a winner. I have maintained through out this that the principals of ARTA have ulterior motives behind the "trail" idea. We think this is a mess now? If the state decides to move forward with the trail idea we will really see sparks fly, most of them internal at ARTA. Their "directors" have far to different points of view of how the corridor will ultimately be used. They are simply unified at the moment with the common goal of getting rid of the train.

The people at ARTA shut right up when you bring up the Bob Marshall Wilderness Area. For those here that don't know, the "BOB" as it is referred to, basically calls for a large forever wild area "north of Rt 28, south of Rt 3 and west of Rt 30". The railroad runs right through this very remote area. If the BOB becomes reality it will restrict the use of motorized vehicles in this area (snowmobiles are motorized). ARTA shrugs this off and never really gives a real solution. They have said in regards to different topics that "the corridor will never become forever wild because it will retain it transportation corridor status". They cannot guarantee this however, and DOT has even implied that it would actually loose that status if the rails are removed.

Bottom line: Some of the more "powerful" members of ARTA are straight using the snowmobile crowd to boost their numbers. Once they get the rails removed they will push them to the side as they won't "fit" with the ultimate plan.

You are right on Matt.

In 1982, the Adirondack Council was critical of the Adirondack Park Agency for not exerting review jurisdiction over PC's attempt to remove the tracks back in 1973, stating "such action when proposed by Penn Central was clearly new land use and development subject to Agency jurisdiction."

http://www.adirondackcouncil.org/upload ... P_1982.pdf

The snowmobile faction desperately needs railbanking for this trail to try and use the statute to avoid "new land use", although Protect the Adirondacks! and other groups will pounce on this to establish wilderness classifications in parts of the corridor. ARTA's Green faction (Beamish, Keet) likely would not care either way, as long as the rails are gone.

The Adirondack Railroad Preservation Society needs a large inflow of cash and they could approach the NYDOT and offer to buy the corridor and put an end to all this. How well do railroad buffs raise money? Do we have "activism fiber" in us like the oppostition? Maybe the DOT folks and politicals could give the ARPS a sweetheart deal rather than have to choose sides in the face of their constituency.

Jim

Yeah, they are for real. And have you have seen the ARTA Facebook page (the Green Faction page) that posts the news article about the Flordia Coast-to-Coast bike trail proposal that is seeking big federal money? As a viable transportation alternative?

At least by my perception, our founding fathers must be rolling in their graves.

Jim

How did my country turn so dumb?

I'll blame the current generation for the overall lack of critical thinking skills and lack of caring that many of them exhibit... Sad that I'm a part of said generation.

Lack of caring about anything other than social media and those disgusting things called smart phones is more accurate. Teachers claim to be focusing on teaching kids to think critically; um, try again. If teachers are attempting to get kids to be critical thinkers, they should all be fired as they are doing a terrible job (in my personal experience).

The current problems in this country go far beyond the stupidity of our teenagers.

I have a few questions about historical status of the Remsen-Lake Placid corridor.

First, is this correct that the subject railroad corridor is on the National Historic Register? If so, then does it have similar protection like there is for East Broad Top?

ARTA contends the historic designation does not mean the rails can't be removed; if so then what good is the historic register?

If ARTA's claim is accurate, then what ramification does that hold for places like EBT and others?

Has the NRHS had any comment on anything related to this?

Jim

I do not know any specifics of the circumstances in this particular railroad/corridor. A quick search doesn't show anything related to this line in the National Register database at http://www.nps.gov/history/nr/

However, you will find that the National Register of Historic Places conveys much less "protection" of items listed on it than you might think. To over-summarize: NRHP listing does NOT mean a listed property can never be demolished, altered, reconstructed, moved, sold off, etc.; it only makes it more troublesome work to do so.

I have buildings and structures in my own city that were listed on the NRHP and then demolished, gutted, or otherwise rendered "non-historic." A grain elevator turned into an apartment high-rise. A demolished firehouse. A couple factories, at least one church.

(From the department of nit picking) The Bob Marshall Wilderness already exists in Montana, established in 1964 as part of the Wilderness Act. Covering a bit over a million acres, the "Bob" (as us locals call it) is definitely not friendly for internal combustion engines (though there is an emergency airfield somewhere in/close nearby).

The ARTA folks might want to rethink what that wilderness designation would mean, as basically all trail maintenance would be by hand, and that railroad ROW would quickly degrade back to nature--exactly as a wilderness designation is designed.

The snowmobile crowd would be much better off finding coexistence with the railroad, as wilderness designation would (for any sort of mechanized use) be a draconian solution.

Michael Seitz
Missoula MT

I was incorrect at thinking the "historic register" was of national origin. Apparently it is recognized by the State of New York, in 1993 "Corridor placed on Register of Historic Places":

http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/lands_forest ... 13pres.pdf

I was just wondering what hurdle this might create for ARTA, and from your response, probably none.

Jim

Michael, both factions of ARTA, Green and Snowmobile, contend the corridor will not revert to wilderness classification in the areas that indeed are wilderness. This remains to be seen IF the rails are removed. Environmental groups will be lined up to change that circumstance, and the APA could challenge this as "new land use". More open minded sled owners have questioned this and are wary of the alliance with ARTA. The rails make it tough to run the sleds unless the snow is 10" deep or more, and some of these guys are silly at the thought of a 90 mile corridor where they can run wide open.

I also think the railroad yielding to the snowmobilers for 3 months make it difficult to develop freight business.

Both ARTA factions also contend there is no compromise; no rail with trail.

I can't see a 90 mile trail, through wilderness, being conducive to making a walkng/bike trail when 30-40% of it has no cell service at all, creating a challenge to safety and rescue. Reasonable folks will judge this as too risky for an afternoon ride with their kids.

Jim

You are quite correct that the Bob Marshall Wilderness (federal) is located in Montana. What's being proposed in the Adirondacks is a Bob Marshall Great Wilderness (state of New York). What would be allowed or disallowed in state-designated wilderness areas versus federal I'm not 100% certain, but I'm sure that it would involve a ban on the use of internal combustion engines.

Just as with state versus national registers of historic places, the designations are mostly similar even if they're non-overlapping.

-Philip Marshall (no relation to Bob Marshall by the way)

The bulk of the Bob Marshall (in Montana) is day use backpacking, with horse packing/outfitting another major way to access the park. There is no cell phone service in the park (and honestly one shouldn't expect any).

The wilderness/environment lobby is far stronger than the local trail lobby--and the idea of land "untrammeled by man" is a powerful romantic idea that plays well in the urban portions of New York - which the politicians listen to. Again, a dangerous game for ARTA.

So far as freight service--what commodities/industry are left up there? I could see inbound fuel shipments--but it's the originating freight that makes things happen.

Michael Seitz
Missoula MT

I do not know what, if any, freight possibilities there are. For now ASR has not been marketing any freight service partly because they have agreed not to use the corridor from the end of December through the end of March, or a few weeks into April, so for now a moot point.

I am speculating the pulpwood and mineral works are no longer producing.

The Adirondack Council has published a statement saying they do not think cell service would be appropriate for wilderness and forever wild areas.

Jim