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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 6:15 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3030
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
The latest in the debate from the Adirondack Daily Enterprise:

http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.co ... l?nav=5041

Of course, the trail people don't like this.


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 7:37 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:54 am
Posts: 726
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Of course not, it makes sense. Of course, they'd rather spend their energy making noise about a non-issue than to take actions that would make real differences, such as putting more long haul freight loads on trains and reserving trucks for short to medium haul. As an environmentalist (yes I am one), going green means pushing transportation efficiencies-more trains and ships.

I also love pointing out irony when the trail folks show up hauling their gear with their SUVs. Save the environment my ***.

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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 8:30 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:10 pm
Posts: 950
I was speaking recently with an individual with intimate, first-hand knowledge of the situation up there, and according to him, the issue really isn't snowmobiles at all. Rather, he claims, it is that several people who live in remote location have various rail vehicles that they run on the track to haul themselves and supplies into their camps, and they don't want to lose their ability to come and go as they please on that portion of the railroad. (I'm not making this up, just passing it along.)


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 9:04 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:15 pm
Posts: 137
Location: At large
Quote:
I was speaking recently with an individual with intimate, first-hand knowledge of the situation up there, and according to him, the issue really isn't snowmobiles at all. Rather, he claims, it is that several people who live in remote location have various rail vehicles that they run on the track to haul themselves and supplies into their camps, and they don't want to lose their ability to come and go as they please on that portion of the railroad. (I'm not making this up, just passing it along.)


I think this is a little off. Those people that use the rails to access their camps are all located in one location. They operate by permit and have all been supportive of the railroad. It's the few from this same community that did not choose to play by the rules and lost their permits that have started the trouble (patient zero) and want the trail built (so they can drive over it). The railroad will always be able to accommodate the Hi-railers, even once service is restored. There will be windows in the schedule when they will be able to operate on the block. Plus the restored rail service will give them another option to reach these camps. You are right about the issue not being about snowmobiles though. The snowmobile community is simply being used for their numbers to gain support for the cause. They will be quickly dismissed once the rails are removed by the puppet masters at ARTA.

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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2014 12:56 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3030
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
This poll is apparently being run again because the first version was flawed (it allowed multiple votes), at least for a time.

Let's see if we at least can keep the trail people from having bragging rights.

http://adirondackcitizen.wordpress.com/#pd_a_6322763

If we're lucky, we'll not only get under their skin, we'll give them a rash.


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 2:12 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3030
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
From the "We Don't Get No Respect" department. . .

http://community.railstotrails.org/blog ... Trail.aspx

. . .or perhaps, more accurately, the "double standard" department, in which a trail (or road) is considered "profitable" if it supposedly generates all these benefits, but we have to be profitable for real, actually generating direct returns on our capital.


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 10:03 am 

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:42 am
Posts: 84
From the link in the previous post:

"The study finds that every dollar invested in trails creates at least three dollars of return from tourism and recreation-related activities like equipment rentals, restaurants and lodging.

As an added note: Some studies have documented much higher rates of return, such as 900 percent in North Carolina’s Outer Banks and 1,180 percent in Kansas City!"

If these numbers are correct, then why don't we advocate pulling up all Class 1 main lines and then starting on the two-lane roads next.

Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 10:44 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
Posts: 457
J3a-614 wrote:
From the "We Don't Get No Respect" department. . .
http://community.railstotrails.org/blog ... Trail.aspx


The Silver Comet Trail is a really wonderful facility. It gets a tremendous amount of use because it is really the only place in the entire Atlanta metropolitian region (population: 5.5 million people) where you can go for a long bike ride, away from vehicular traffic. The trail's east end (where its high use numbers are counted) is a very suburban area -- the end of the trail is about 2 miles from where the Atlanta Braves are planning to build their new stadium.

The Silver Comet Trail's success cannot be replicated in the Adirondacks because there aren't 5.5 million people living along and near the Remsen-Lake Placid Travel Corridor!

I'll also add that while the Silver Coment Trail runs thru suburban areas and is regularly patrolled, a trail user was murdered on it in 2006.

Another interesting project in the Atlanta region is the Atlanta Beltline, which is really an urban redevelopment project that happens to include a rail-trail. There is more information about it in the Atlantic Cities article Can Atlanta Go All In on the Beltline?

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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 7:04 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3030
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
A supporter for the railroad speaks up:

http://adirondackdailyenterprise.com/pa ... l?nav=5005


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 12:45 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3030
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Sticking this here because of the comments by Jim McCulley (Adirondack trail bully); he says of this, referring to the Iowa Pacific sale to a venture capitalist group:


"This was written before they were sold, But this is what the ASR says is going to save them....'Still, it’s hard to escape the sense that Mr. Ellis’s time-traveling adventure is a big gamble, one that may amount to a dazzling but short-lived experiment. (Although Pullman’s capacity is 40 to 90 passengers, depending on how many cars are attached, there were only 11 paying passengers on my ride to New Orleans, and just six on the return trip. According to Mr. Ellis, that’s not uncommon.)'"

He continues in a follow-up comment:

"The sale means it will end sooner than later."

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/18/trave ... .html?_r=0


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 10:04 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3030
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Not directly related to the Adirondack, but notable for being rail trail news, is this piece about a proposed conversion in Delaware. Estimated cost--about $1 million per mile:

http://www.delawareonline.com/story/new ... s/9156021/


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 10:16 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8353
Location: Baltimore, MD
J3a-614 wrote:
Not directly related to the Adirondack, but notable for being rail trail news, is this piece about a proposed conversion in Delaware. Estimated cost--about $1 million per mile:

http://www.delawareonline.com/story/new ... s/9156021/


Quote:
That longer east-west trail is just a dream at the moment but state officials on Thursday outlined drawings for Phase I – the small section from Gills Neck Road to Savannah Road in Lewes. That phase, expected to cost $1.5 million, would include a trail head with restrooms and 30-car parking lot near the proposed new Lewes Library.

That's all the most expensive stuff on the land with the highest price, including land that was probably not RR property. I'm actually impressed--based on their usual practices, The People's Democratic Republic Of Maryland wouldn't dream of spending less than $1.5 million each on the restrooms, the parking lot, and the trail itself.


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 2:30 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3030
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
From the Adirondack Daily Enterprise:

http://adirondackdailyenterprise.com/pa ... l?nav=5041

I have to laugh at the comments from the Adirondack Rail Trail page (another of the ARTA's pages). Among other things, they claim some of us are being paid to promote the railroad! I wish that was so; I can use the money!

https://www.facebook.com/theadirondackrailtrail

Comments as of time of posting:

Eric Kessin: Could someone tell this idiot that the railroad will NEVER EVER be resurrected. Any money spent in upstate New York will be used on the Albany to Buffalo corridor, where people would actually travel 12 months a year. How many people would be riding the rails to day from Utica to Lake Placid? Maybe 10?
13 hours ago · Like

The Adirondack Rail Trail: The railroad is the economic drain on our communities right now. People recreating on the Travel Corridor is the economic lifeline our communities need. The railroad is prohibiting growth in all the communities along the corridor by monopolizing and obstructing any other potential use. They had their turn and they blew it. Time to move on. Over 400 businesses agree.
13 hours ago · Like

Eric Kessin: It's got to be more than just love of railroads. Is anyone making money on this? And what's maddening is that the railroad will be financially stronger if it just runs along the existing south route.
12 hours ago · Like

The Adirondack Rail Trail: Railfans oppose any railroad closures as "someday" we will be riding the train again. ASR mostly likes to cruise up and down the corridor in their privately owned trains and with their privately owned high railers as recreation. Only now, since ARTA started their campaign, have they stepped up to try and build a viable business. In fact, Kate Fish, of ANCA, told us point blank , in the beginning of our efforts, that all of our efforts would wasted and that all we will accomplish is that ASR will step up and start to take their business seriously. The economic development people shut us out and tried to shut us down every step of the way. So, we took it to the people of these communities and the people told us what they wanted. They are no fools.
12 hours ago · Edited · Like

Ken Lawless: We all know how much the Adirondack Council cares about economic development in the park! Mr. Falcsic, The downfall to writing letters about an area you know little about, is that the people you are preaching to are far more informed than you will ever be regarding issues in the park. We live it. Everyday. Citing the Adirondack Councils opinion on economic growth? Hilarious!
12 hours ago · Like

Glenn Poirier: Ya can't make this stuff up. And Mr. Falcsic lives where? In Pennsylvania, so that makes him an expert on the economy of the Tri-Lakes I guess.
12 hours ago · Like · 1

The Adirondack Rail Trail: The Adirondack Council supports maintaining the Travel Corridor status with or without the rails. It supports the Travel Corridor keeping it's own UMP. It does not support the Travel Corridor being absorbed into the land classifications that it cuts through.
12 hours ago · Like

The Adirondack Rail Trail: There are considerably less "Foamers" otherwise known as railfans or railroad enthusiasts that travel to ride on historical railroads than there are bicyclists and snowmobilers who travel to participate in their respective sports. Also, we have many, many disabled supporters who are anxiously awaiting a safe venue to ride their vehicles without fear of being run over by log truck on the limited roads that have shoulders wide enough to ride on. They also deserve a venue for active participation in the Park. ASR has a venue for historic train lovers and yet they would deny bicyclers the same opportunity.
10 hours ago · Like · 1

Brian Joseph: The 2005 study on snowmobile is over 9 years old........emissions have changed quite a bit since then!


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 9:50 am 

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:42 am
Posts: 84
You mean the way ARTA paid college students to collect signatures for the petition that generated many of the 12K supporters? I expect to be hammered on the Facebook sites, but that is nothing new. They don't address factual content very often; they prefer to throw insults, etc.

The premise that once the tracks are removed, under the railbanking statute, their supporters believe NEVER EVER to be considered for reactivation. This is misuse of the statute and that is why I believe the rules on this need to be modified.

Something I did not mention in this commentary is there are trail communities in my area that are Economically Distressed Municipalities; the projected trail economy has not materialized as promised and claimed as existing.

Giving a pass to snowmobilers on the emissions issue is interesting. This is not normal. I wonder if there is a gentleman's agreement somewhere between ARTA Green and groups like Protect and others to let this play out without interference? The data I referenced is 9 years old, but there are a lot of snowmobiles out there and the ratio of old emission standards (none) and the new 4-stroke emissions is unknown (for now). Additionally, there are other environmental issues to bring to the table.

Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 10:36 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
Posts: 457
J3a-614 wrote:
The Adirondack Rail Trail: The railroad is the economic drain on our communities right now. People recreating on the Travel Corridor is the economic lifeline our communities need.

That comment beautifully summaries just how dreadful the economy is in upstate NY -- the people still living there honestly think that walking on a trail would be an "economic lifeline".

Here's a random news article, describing more companies leaving upstate NY:
WGRZ Television: Moody's - More Signs of Decline For Upstate NY (Aug 2, 2013)

The decline has been ongoing for decades! Here is a state report that documents it:
Office of the New York State Comptroller: Population Trends in New York State’s Cities

NY State Comptroller - Population Trends in New York State’s Cities wrote:
In terms of population loss, the large upstate cities have been particularly hard hit. For example, the City of Buffalo lost approximately half of its population from 1950 to 2000. This population loss is the fourth highest among large cities nationwide. Rochester (34 percent decline) and Syracuse (33 percent decline) experienced significant population reductions for the same period. Like Buffalo, these cities have had five consecutive decades of declining population levels.

and
Quote:
Population trends are regional. Since 1970, Long Island and Mid-Hudson cities have shown growth, while the pattern of decline has been most severe for cities located in the Western New York and Mohawk Valley regions, with cities in these regions losing 32 percent and 30 percent of their total population, respectively.

The Mohawk Valley (wikipedia) is the area that includes the cities of Schenectady, Utica and Rome - basically, the populated area directly south of the Adirondack Park.

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