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 Post subject: The T1 Trust Would Like To Thank Wes Camp
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:01 am 

Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:29 am
Posts: 3
The T1 Trust is pleased to announce Wes Camp as its first Charter Member.
http://thet1trust.com/


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 Post subject: Re: The T1 Trust Would Like To Thank Wes Camp
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:04 am 

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:49 am
Posts: 231
Location: Cambridgeshire UK
Great Idea, more power to you! Not wanting to sound a wet blanket, where are you going to run it? Even in the PRR steam days, the T1's were only allowed to run on certain lines, due to the long wheel base.


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 Post subject: Re: The T1 Trust Would Like To Thank Wes Camp
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:08 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:30 am
Posts: 84
where will they run it once it's finished. I don't think that any railroads would run for long runs.


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 Post subject: Re: The T1 Trust Would Like To Thank Wes Camp
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:51 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:24 pm
Posts: 41
Finding a place to run it at this point is a non-issue. This project will take 10-15 years to complete. Railroad management changes every 3-4 years. This is how the Friends of the 261 think and it has worked well for them for the past 20 years.

Focus your efforts on building it, someone will always let it run, it may not be on a main line at 120+ mph rather a shortline at 40mph. But there will always be somewhere to run it.

With the advent of CAD, engineers will likely be able to squeeze a few more degrees of curvature out of the frame making it more accessible to more mainlines (and shortlines).

The challenge here is building it, not running it. We all would like to see it on the NEC at 120 mph, but that will never happen if it is not built.


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 Post subject: Re: The T1 Trust Would Like To Thank Wes Camp
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:54 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5254
Location: southeastern USA
The challenge isn't building it - that was done decades ago before we had digital assistance in prototyping. It worked as well as it could back then, and no form of replication of the same design will work any better today.

The challenge is constructing a case for its being funded that will get enough money to build it. Knowing it will be useful if it is built is a valid consideration, but not the only one.

"it would be way cool to see it" isn't going to get may wallet open.

If they want to thank him, why don't they just do it?

dave

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 Post subject: Re: The T1 Trust Would Like To Thank Wes Camp
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:54 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
Posts: 1050
Location: Youngstown, OH
Isn't "it would be way cool to see it" the real reason why most of us are involved with railway preservation? Yeah, I know, its all that highbrow lofty talk about securing for the future an historical perspective, or providing a vehicle for economic development and cultural enrichment and such, but deep down inside we do what we do because "it would be way cool to see it".

Why was 765 REALLY restored? "it would be way cool to see it".
Why did Doyle Macormick rebuild that PA-4 from a crumpled ball of metal back into a locomotive? "it would be way cool to see it"
And why would people support a PRR T1 effort? "it would be way cool to see it".

We (and I speak of volunteer and a good deal of donor motivation here) work in a field in which bottom line profits are not the motive for what we do, and even educating the public is not the primary motive. Profits and the public are just a way to provide the funding we need to achieve our true goal: "it would be way cool to see it"!

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 Post subject: Re: The T1 Trust Would Like To Thank Wes Camp
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:32 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2440
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
I think we are being trolled.

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 Post subject: Re: The T1 Trust Would Like To Thank Wes Camp
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:48 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5254
Location: southeastern USA
Rick, if we were capable of doing the project by ourselves, Way Cool would be all we need. I don't think we're there yet, which means we need to market any project to donors beyond railfans. There's not a tourist railway or railroad museum in the US undertaking less costly programming that doesn't depend on the general public to pay the bills.

dave

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 Post subject: Re: The T1 Trust Would Like To Thank Wes Camp
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:53 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3036
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Hot Metal wrote:
Isn't "it would be way cool to see it" the real reason why most of us are involved with railway preservation? Yeah, I know, its all that highbrow lofty talk about securing for the future an historical perspective, or providing a vehicle for economic development and cultural enrichment and such, but deep down inside we do what we do because "it would be way cool to see it".

Why was 765 REALLY restored? "it would be way cool to see it".
Why did Doyle Macormick rebuild that PA-4 from a crumpled ball of metal back into a locomotive? "it would be way cool to see it"
And why would people support a PRR T1 effort? "it would be way cool to see it".

We (and I speak of volunteer and a good deal of donor motivation here) work in a field in which bottom line profits are not the motive for what we do, and even educating the public is not the primary motive. Profits and the public are just a way to provide the funding we need to achieve our true goal: "it would be way cool to see it"!


Dave wrote:
Rick, if we were capable of doing the project by ourselves, Way Cool would be all we need. I don't think we're there yet, which means we need to market any project to donors beyond railfans. There's not a tourist railway or railroad museum in the US undertaking less costly programming that doesn't depend on the general public to pay the bills.

dave



I say both of you are right. We do things because it is educational, because it is preserving something we see as important--and because it is "way cool" to see such things run. Why else would we work as we do with cantankerous, cranky, dirty steam locomotives?

And yes, the projects we are in are usually beyond the means of most of us, even as an organized group. So, we do have to reach beyond to the non-railfan society for our backing.

Fortunately, we often do have other reasons besides "real cool" to work with. Not saying this particular project is one with those, but who says this doesn't apply to No. 611, or the 765, or the 4014--especially the 4014?

Further musing: How much "way cool" thinking goes into, say, automotive design? How much went into the development of the wireless telephones and smart phones and things that are so universal today? How much goes into, say, a desire for a new civic center or new sports venue? Not all of these have made economic sense, but someone, somewhere, had a vision, and was able to convince other people to back it.

Heck, isn't that all a bunch of trail people can really claim to have? Really?


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 Post subject: Re: The T1 Trust Would Like To Thank Wes Camp
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:08 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8358
Location: Baltimore, MD
"It would be way cool" gets you a few dreamers, a few pledges, and a bunch of change in the donation box at the train shows. If you get enough of those, more power to you.

Having a firm business plan, which includes finding a place for it to go/operate and a well-thought-out engineering and financing plan with estimates, gets you major donors, foundations offering you grants, and the like. And the people with that kind of money didn't accrue it by acting impulsively on "way cool" projects, by and large.

And folks will want a return on their investment. There's a chance they can do it? I'll throw in a buck. But if you want me to throw in $50, $500 or $5,000 or whatever, I'm going to demand some assurance that it's going to run, and not just a few feet at whatever museum. I can go to the Franklin Institute and ride a 4-10-2 if I want that.

Many, many years ago, a board member with one of the rail groups I was with gave me a stark assessment: "Remember this, Sandy: We can't survive without 'angels'. Members and small donors are one thing, but without a few major donors, we don't operate. And we have to make sure to cultivate others to take their place when they go to their Great Reward."


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 Post subject: Re: The T1 Trust Would Like To Thank Wes Camp
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:40 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
Posts: 1050
Location: Youngstown, OH
The key to success for this project is not answering the tired old "where do you run it" question that is impossible to answer 15 to 20 years out. Please tell me with some certainty where the 765 will be running in 2029! Hmmm??? Will it be on the NS? CSX? Will there even be an NS or CSX then? Nobody knows but I am sure that Fort Wayne is not fretting over that questions and is already making plans for 765's next big refurbishing, because they know that question answers itself in time. So what you really do by asking that question is set up a reason not to ever invest in one of these projects, as it cannot be answered.

The key to success here is not in the finished product barreling down the mainline, but turning this project into a teaching opportunity. You can sell this project as vocational education and job training. It is the process of building the locomotive that has value, not the end result. There is a tremendous amount of money for job training out there, and if the T1 Trust people could sell this as a job training effort then it stands a chance of landing some significant funding to keep it going.

Another possibility is to find a producer to turn it into a reality show. I just watched a five part mini series called the "Treasure of Oak Island", and if they can find a way to make a couple of guys digging holes on a small island worthy of TV some producer can mold the story of building a new steam locomotive into at least a five part series that will get picked up. Doing the series gets the project in front of millions of people, and once interest has been peaked then it becomes much more likely to land a major donor.

I could see it in my mind how such a series would be set up. First start out with an episode that explores the history and mythos around the locomotive (even if it is embellished) and discussing the plan for building the new loco. To add a bit of mystery to it the team could visit several libraries and archives looking for drawings and photos, then film one episode with the team talking to the crew of an operational locomotive and riding along on an excursion. Then another episode dispelling the myths that America no longer has the ability to build great things by visiting a large foundry, machine shop and fabricating shop, and maybe an episode where some iconic piece of the new locomotive is made, with cameras following the team as they design the part and have it made.

It most certainly can be done.

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Rick Rowlands
Steel Industry Preservationist, Narrow Gauge Railroader and ALCOhaulic


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 Post subject: Re: The T1 Trust Would Like To Thank Wes Camp
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:49 pm 

Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 11:27 am
Posts: 420
Location: Switching the Coach Yard
What exactly are we preserving here? I read their propaganda and so far the only thing that might be confused for preservation is their work (?) helping to conserve some very old PRR drawings. Not pointing an accusing finger, but their "membership schedule" reads like a pyramid scheme of sorts.

In reading the pages of this esteemed site, it appears we have already "saved" more than we can effectively "preserve". So on what level is building a new tea kettle gonna help preserve the hundreds of others that are merrily rotting away? Could I get a real PRR tea kettle running for $10 million -- perhaps a nice Pacific type?

ETA


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 Post subject: Re: The T1 Trust Would Like To Thank Wes Camp
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:01 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2440
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
steamfan765 wrote:
where will they run it once it's finished. I don't think that any railroads would run for long runs.


David Notarius wrote:
Great Idea, more power to you! Not wanting to sound a wet blanket, where are you going to run it? Even in the PRR steam days, the T1's were only allowed to run on certain lines, due to the long wheel base.


Actually, this is a legitimate question. Their "business plan" includes a very "sure of itself" statement:

Quote:
For 20 of these unique companies we will make an offer we believe they will find hard to resist. We intend to take the T1 #5550 across the country and back ten times during its first two years of operation.


A major portion of the fundraising is on the premise that said locomotive will have access to a coast-to-coast railroad network across the United States. This, in reality, means BNSF and either NS or CSX. However, there is no evidence that agreements are in place. The marketing plan has some holes in it.

I also don't want to be a wet blanket here, but what corporate form has the "trust" assumed? Saying you are a "trust" is likely to align itself with the A1 trust over in Great Britain, but the fact that the organization is trying to sell "memberships" (Do I have to sell Amway as part of it?) and seeking donations, without a readily identifiable corporate form raises some questions.

Also, the website looks only somewhat slick. It's a slightly dressed up version of the Steam Marketing Group website: http://www.steammarketinggroup.com

Notice the misspellings on the T1 group page, or in this case, the following grammatical error:

Quote:
Charter Members have a very important roll to play.


Bottom line, fancy websites and the ability to use Adobe Illustrator does not make a viable plan to build a new locomotive.

David M. Wilkins
Wet Blanket, Utah

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"They Love Him for the Enemies He Has Made!"


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 Post subject: Re: The T1 Trust Would Like To Thank Wes Camp
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:37 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
Posts: 1050
Location: Youngstown, OH
Agreed on the name of the organization. The T1 Trust certainly is a copy of the A1 trust's name. Whoever came up with that name was possibly unaware that the word 'trust" in the UK has a legal meaning that it does not have in the US.

I understand that they are incorporated in the State of Missouri as a non profit corporation and the form 1023 has either been or soon will be submitted.

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Rick Rowlands
Steel Industry Preservationist, Narrow Gauge Railroader and ALCOhaulic


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 Post subject: Re: The T1 Trust Would Like To Thank Wes Camp
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:03 am 

Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:49 pm
Posts: 16
Well, I will be a "wet blanket" when it comes to operation of any excursion/special train,diesel or steam powered on most railroads outside of an occasional short line with "big buck" liability insurance.
I have been an operating and rules manager along with being a conductor/engineer on fifteen, different, roads over the last 47 years. In addition, I have been a private car owner, have handled steam and diesel excursions and I have been a fan for decades in a business I truly enjoy.
While I do respect and appreciate most preservation efforts especially restoring steam locomotives, the plain truth is that most class 1 roads do not have the capacity, man power, insurance or desire to handle main line excursions. With growth of frack sand, oil, containers, grain and perishables there is absolutely no room for additional operations without adding expensive capacity. Also most regionals and short lines don't have the physical plant or insurance to handle excursions. If movements of these type are operated they are for revenue growth or lowing expenses. The railroads in general do not want the public on their right of way due to the tremendous lack of safety consciousness of them and potential liability expense.
Yes, there is the NS steam program for limited moves but they are protecting themselves by only allowing experienced, safe groups like TVR to run them. Of course there is also the UP steam program which thankfully continues but it is solely under their control and again limited. Also keep in mind that all roads are operated so "tight" financially that even younger management is learning that anything (like excursions) which can create a liability is to be avoided at all costs.
I may be wrong but it is looking increasingly like, outside of the two previously named railroads, that excursion whether steam or diesel will be restricted to museum operation on short main tracks. Even that might be in question as the price of 15 year, re-buildsls becomes more expensive, and the volunteer numbers decrease. I really believe that the future of most museums will be limited to five mile runs (that's about the most track, museums can afford to maintain) a few passenger carrying cars, a diesel or two, several unique/freight cars, maybe a small, steam locomotive, and most of all a few sheds/shop to store it all in so it stays preserved when not in use. If more operations would truly limit what they can reasonably maintain and then, sell, trade or scrap the rest they would have a better chance of survival in the future.
Okay, I am sure this is not what most of you want to hear but this is what I see coming. All of you folks (especially the common sense, minded, ones who actually get their "hands dirty" restoring and running equipment) are to be commended for what you do to keep railroad preservation alive and growing. My hat is off to you for doing this so well but I still maintain that the question of "where is it going to run" has to be know and planned for before asking for donations for "pie in the sky" steam project.
All right. thanks, for allowing me to speak the truth about what I know and what I believe will happen. If ,what I see of our economy and the way things are being run in this country are any indication of things to come, I think the last thing we need to be concerned about is what steam locomotive to build/rebuild for main line operation.

Barry


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