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 Post subject: Re: why not fabricate?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2002 9:42 pm 

GEEEEZ DAVE: The next thing you will want to weldup is locomotive boilers and diesel locomotive blocks :o)


lamontdc@adelphia.net


  
 
 Post subject: Re: why not fabricate?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2002 11:32 pm 

> Seems there is no technical reason we
> couldn't weld fabricate a cylinder and valve
> using modern quality control and welding
> technology. Has anybody out there tried it?

> Dave

Indeed there is no reason not to. The PRR built some fabricated steel cylinder blocks in the 1930's. In fact, photos and the blue prints are still in existance. With post weld heat treatment, and cast iron liners pressed in, there is not reason that they wouldn't out preform cast iron cylinders in every respect.

There is always nashing of teeth regarding the loss of manufacturing capability in the U S, to which I say balony! It's true that huge castings like bed frames are probably not castable any more, but not because we can't build something like that any more, but because we have come up with better ways to do the job. I firmly beleive that if steam locomotives had continued in uninteruped production until today, that you wouldn't see any more castings on them than you do an SD90. True, you wouldn't see cast steel bed frames, you would see welded steel bed frames with built in welded steel cylinders. By the way, the cylinder block on an SD90 is fabricated, not cast.

Which is not to say that moderatly sized castings, say to the size of a two piece cylinder block would be a problem. The pattern making and foundry business is alive and well in the U S, just scaled down to meet the reduced demand. The Strasburg did have two cylinder blocks (14 x 22) cast up from new patterns that they commisioned. The foundry had to cast three, having ruined the first one (not bad considering that they had never seen a steam locomotive cylinder before). The SRR has also, by my count had the patterns and castings made for 37(!) driving wheels in the last 10 years, not to mention for a number of differant pistons, and smaller parts.


  
 
 Post subject: Re: why not fabricate?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2002 11:41 pm 

In the 1940s, PRR fabricated welded cylinders and saddles for M-1 4-8-2s. See 1947 Locomotive Cyclopedia, page 529, for a good photo of one. It's a massive weldment, very nicely done. And certainly larger than cylinders on many steam locomotives operating today. I have been told that there were a number of these built during the War, and that those locomotives that had them applied ran the rest of their careers with the welded cylinders. Perhaps someplace in a repository of PRR blueprints, a print for these is lurking.

With the advances in metallurgy, welding practice, stress-relief and inspection methods, why would making a cylinder (or half) not be possible in 2002?



hpincus@mindspring.com


  
 
 Post subject: Re: why not fabricate?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2002 7:16 am 

Dave:

I believe SLM used welded cylinder assemblies on the new rack steam locomotives built in the 1990's. I found a German language webpage a couple of years ago that showed the freshly fabricated cylinders and they were obviously welded.

We had this same discussion on the "Steam_tech" mailing list a few weeks ago. The welded cylinders used on some Pennsy M-1's were also mentioned.

More recently (in the last ~5 years), INTERLOK, the Polish steam restoration company, has built new welded cylinders for several European steam locomotives which were restored. One weldment for a large (by European standards) standard gauge locomotive consisted of 42 separate pieces and was annealed after completion of fabrication. See the link below for more information on them.

The comment in another post about the possibility of completed welded frame/cylinder assemblies is interesting. Andre Chapelon, the famous French steam designer, had planned this construction for a new series of post-WWII steam locomotives that were to incorporate the best of U.S. and French design practice. Unfortunately, the French decided to electrify their railways in the late 1940's and steam construction was haulted.

Good Steaming,
Hugh Odom
The Ultimate Steam Page
http://www.trainweb.org/tusp

> Interesting differences of opinion here.

> In reading RED DEVIL, 3450 was altered
> through th steam chests by cutting away a
> large section and welding in a new piece. A
> pearlitic iron liner was then installed.

> I rode on a modern steam passenger
> locomotive in Australia a few years back
> that had a completely fabricated engine and
> saddle if i correctly understood my hosts at
> the time.

> So, maybe if we instituted high quality
> control, normalized assemblies and than
> machined and lined?

> Hugh, please tell us what is going on in the
> rest of the world. Does Winterthur cast or
> fabricate?

> Dave


INTERLOK
whodom@awod.com


  
 
 Post subject: Santa Fe 3752
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2002 1:18 pm 

I believe Santa Fe 4-8-4 No. 3752 got a new welded cylinder saddle when it was converted to poppet valves in the 1950s. Not sure how it worked, though, as I don't think the engine was in service too much longer after the conversion.



http://us.f141.mail.yahoo.com/ym/login?.rand=1q5p7b1cgo83n
bobyar2001@yahoo.com


  
 
 Post subject: Re: New cylinder castings
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2002 5:07 pm 

Aarne,

Am I incorrect in remembering that when they built the new cylinders for the Duke, that they found some drawing error that had caused some operational problems in the old days, and that they corrected for it when they made the new cylinders. If I remmember incorrectly, sorry.

Steve

> British outfits have made five modern
> cylinder castings that I know of, and
> possibly quite a few more. Three of these
> are for the new A1 4-6-2 now being erected
> at Darlington. These are what we would call
> medium-size cylinders with piston valves.
> The middle one includes the frame spreaders
> and the saddle for the smokebox, and of
> course the exhaust passages for the nozzle.
> The Brits also made new cylinders for the
> poppet-valve experimental 4-6-2 Duke of
> Gloucester by back-engineering from the
> originals, which had been hacked off and
> sectioned as museum exhibits. After new
> drawings were prepared, the original
> drawings came to light, and the new drawings
> were found to be almost identical.

> I believe that all these castings were done
> from wooden patterns, although a lot of the
> castings for the A1 are being made with lost
> foam. If I remember right, no more than one
> or two tries was needed for the complicated
> Duke cylinders, and I don't think any of the
> A1 cylinders had to be cast more than once.

> Aarne H. Frobom
> The Steam Railroading Institute
> P. O. Box 665
> Owosso, MI 48867-0665


SZuidervee@aol.com


  
 
 Post subject: Re: why not fabricate?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2002 5:14 pm 

Interesting "opinion"...are you a certified pressure vessel weldor? A weld design specialist?

As it HAS already been done in models (up to 4" bore that I'm aware of) I'm sure that the owners will be surprised to find it won't work.... Much like bumblebees probably would be rather surprised to learn that the experts say they can't fly.

> In my opinion, it would be next to
> impossible to make a pair of cylinders using
> a welding process.
> The stress caused by the uneven heating and
> cooling would almost definitly lead to
> warping, and if it didn't it would produce
> an end product which is not strong enough.

> cheers,
> Steve


  
 
 Post subject: Meiningen, Germany for welded steam loco cylinders
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2002 11:33 pm 

Welded cylinders are standard on "rebuilt" German 4-6-2s (rebuilt from 01 class), and many other classes as well. After annealing the welded assembly, and boring out the cylinder and valve chambers, you press in cast-iron liners. (EMD uses a similiar technique for their welded 567 and 645 engine blocks.) This results in a strong welded cylinder assembly with the good wearing characteristics of cast iron.

The Meiningen shops is the primary German steam heavy-overhaul shop for preserved locomotives. They have done recent overhauls on French 4-8-2s etc as well. From their website (in English): http://www.dampflokwerk.de/english/index.htm

"The maintenance of steam locomotives is highly challenging for our specialists and very demanding in respect of methods of manufacturing and technical equipment.

"We offer our clients a comprehensive service of developing and designing of major components which are no longer obtainable with modern industry such as:

locomotive boilers (welded)

steam cylinders (fabricated)

new or partly renewed frames

new cabs, tanks, ash pans

connecting and coupling rods

bogies (trailing and leading trucks)

axles and wheels

fitting and modernizing of Automatic Train Control Systems

fuel conversions on steam locomotives (coal oil)

repairing and manufacturing of fire boxes

- Doug Debs



doug.w.debs@fcimg.com


  
 
 Post subject: Re: New cylinder castings
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2002 7:24 am 

Steve:

I don't think they found any problem with the cylinder casting. You do have it right that there were problems with the Duke back in its BR days and it never lived up to its promised performance.

What the restorers did find that the double exhaust stack was woefully undersized for the boiler. When the engine was rebuilt (re-constructed is more like it), a new double Kylchap exhaust system was fitted which had MUCH larger nozzle and stack areas that the original.

Later, they found that the air openings in the ashpan were much smaller than called for on the original plans. These two items greatly restricted the flow of combustion gases through the boiler, and restricted the flow of steam leaving the cylinders (thereby negating much of the benefit of the poppet valves).

When the Duke finally entered excursion service, it easily beat its former performance achievements. The engine has been undergoing an overhaul for the last several years. During this overhaul, new design camshafts are being fitted which should further improve the engine's performance. Most recently, they discovered a drawing error on the cylinder head drawings. New cylinder heads were designed and fitted which will even further improve the flow into and out of the cylinders.

See the group's website at the link below for more information.

Good Steaming,
Hugh Odom
The Ultimate Steam Page
http://www.trainweb.org/tusp

> Aarne,

> Am I incorrect in remembering that when they
> built the new cylinders for the Duke, that
> they found some drawing error that had
> caused some operational problems in the old
> days, and that they corrected for it when
> they made the new cylinders. If I remmember
> incorrectly, sorry.

> Steve


Duke of Gloucester
whodom@awod.com


  
 
 Post subject: Re: Meiningen, Germany for welded steam loco cylin
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2002 8:43 am 

That must be quite an operation and:
"In recent years Meiningen Steam Locomotive Works became particularly attractive to railway enthusiasts German and foreign due to the Meiningen Steam Locomotive Days organized every summer."
It's nice to know that the technology is being maintained and it makes me wonder how many cases there out there that have been condemned to "display only" that could be fixed! Thanks for the info



lamontdc@adelphia.net


  
 
 Post subject: Re: NP 2156 repairs
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2002 9:36 am 

Some Canadian outfit did it, Hugh. It didn't work at all. It looked like a lawn sprinkler!
Ken

> Ken:

> That's interesting about the cold stitch
> repair not working. I know a lot of people
> push this for repairing cracked auto engine
> blocks, especially on older, rarer cars.
> I've read a lot about it, and some people
> swear by it (see link below to one
> manufacturer). Basically, you drill a series
> of not-quite-touching holes and thread them
> with a special tap. You then screw in
> specially threaded plugs. The threads are
> supposedly contoured to actually
> "pull" the two sides of the crack
> together. Next, you drill a second set of
> holes at the intersections of the first set
> of plugs, tap them, and screw in more
> inserts. When you're through, the crack has
> been replaced by a line of
> "stitch" plugs. These guys claim
> it is extremely difficult to weld or braze
> large cast iron parts properly, and that's
> why "stitching" is better.

> Do you know who did the work on the cylinder
> from the engine at Tweetsie? I'm just
> wondering if "cold stitching" is
> that crappy, or if the guys who did the work
> did a sorry job.

> Good Steaming,
> Hugh Odom
> The Ultimate Steam Page
> http://www.trainweb.org/tusp


Little River Locomotive Company
ken290@hiwaay.net


  
 
 Post subject: Brit 4-6-2 Horsepower Race?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2002 10:24 am 

> When the Duke finally entered excursion
> service, it easily beat its former
> performance achievements. The engine has
> been undergoing an overhaul for the last
> several years. During this overhaul, new
> design camshafts are being fitted which
> should further improve the engine's
> performance. Most recently, they discovered
> a drawing error on the cylinder head
> drawings. New cylinder heads were designed
> and fitted which will even further improve
> the flow into and out of the cylinders.

The latest issue of the magazine of the A1 Trust says that one of their objectives is to establish conclusively that their new engine will be "the most powerful 4-6-2 in Britain." It says they intend to design their new boiler to a higher pressure than the first A1s, although they do not intend to operate it at the higher pressure most of the time.

It sounds like a horsepower race between hot rodders to me. I and the 1225's boiler engineer leave next month for Darlington to see this firsthand. We have rail passes and are now cruising the internet looking for the English equivalent of cheap red-neon motels, and would appreciate any advice on unusual steam events and sites that we might see after the A1.

Aarne Frobom
The Steam Railroading Institute
P. O. Box 665
Owosso, MI 48867-0665

froboma@mdot.state.mi.us


  
 
 Post subject: Re: Brit 4-6-2 Horsepower Race?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2002 6:43 pm 

Aarne:

When you said "horsepower race" and "Darlington" my first thought was "what's that got to do with steam?" (I live in SC and the race is this weekend.)

It sure would be great if you could do an article on your visit to the Darlington Works for RPYN when you get back. I'd love to hear an American perspective on what they're doing over there and what lessons we can learn from them regarding funding, recreation of "lost" techniques, application of modern technology, etc.

Hugh Odom

> The latest issue of the magazine of the A1
> Trust says that one of their objectives is
> to establish conclusively that their new
> engine will be "the most powerful 4-6-2
> in Britain." It says they intend to
> design their new boiler to a higher pressure
> than the first A1s, although they do not
> intend to operate it at the higher pressure
> most of the time.

> It sounds like a horsepower race between hot
> rodders to me. I and the 1225's boiler
> engineer leave next month for Darlington to
> see this firsthand. We have rail passes and
> are now cruising the internet looking for
> the English equivalent of cheap red-neon
> motels, and would appreciate any advice on
> unusual steam events and sites that we might
> see after the A1.

> Aarne Frobom
> The Steam Railroading Institute
> P. O. Box 665
> Owosso, MI 48867-0665


The Ultimate Steam Page
whodom@awod.com


  
 
 Post subject: Re: why not fabricate?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2002 8:46 pm 

The EMD H-engine (used in the SD-90) is of cast construction-as is the GE 7HDL-16, the Caterpillar
3600 series-and last but not least-the stillborn
Bombardier B2400.

State-of-the-art for medium sized, medium speed diesel engines as applied to locomotive, marine
and allied applications is cast construction.

Indeed there is no reason not to. The PRR
> built some fabricated steel cylinder blocks
> in the 1930's. In fact, photos and the blue
> prints are still in existance. With post
> weld heat treatment, and cast iron liners
> pressed in, there is not reason that they
> wouldn't out preform cast iron cylinders in
> every respect.

> There is always nashing of teeth regarding
> the loss of manufacturing capability in the
> U S, to which I say balony! It's true that
> huge castings like bed frames are probably
> not castable any more, but not because we
> can't build something like that any more,
> but because we have come up with better ways
> to do the job. I firmly beleive that if
> steam locomotives had continued in
> uninteruped production until today, that you
> wouldn't see any more castings on them than
> you do an SD90. True, you wouldn't see cast
> steel bed frames, you would see welded steel
> bed frames with built in welded steel
> cylinders. By the way, the cylinder block on
> an SD90 is fabricated, not cast.

> Which is not to say that moderatly sized
> castings, say to the size of a two piece
> cylinder block would be a problem. The
> pattern making and foundry business is alive
> and well in the U S, just scaled down to
> meet the reduced demand. The Strasburg did
> have two cylinder blocks (14 x 22) cast up
> from new patterns that they commisioned. The
> foundry had to cast three, having ruined the
> first one (not bad considering that they had
> never seen a steam locomotive cylinder
> before). The SRR has also, by my count had
> the patterns and castings made for 37(!)
> driving wheels in the last 10 years, not to
> mention for a number of differant pistons,
> and smaller parts.


74471.3045@compuserve.com


  
 
 Post subject: Re: why not fabricate?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2002 9:22 pm 

Oh, well, at least they used to be fabricated. It is nice to be involved enough with steam railroading so as to be unaware of what is state of the art in deisels.


  
 
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